Author Topic: merge question  (Read 920 times)

Offline lambo31

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merge question
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2007, 11:13:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel ..  Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us



Thx for the film Rosco, I always forget to turn it on. Funny thing though, that fight with you still sticks out in my mind. Was a real stick gripper.


Lambo
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Offline Sloehand

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merge question
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2007, 11:30:22 PM »
First, I think a better understand of what your trying to accomplish and why may be needed.  What you are trying to do by ultimately refusing the Head-On engagement is gain separation from the bandit so as to acquire the necessary turning room between you and the bandit, so that as you merge, you can Lead Turn around him and onto his 6.

If you change your heading left or right, off of the Head-On aspect, this is trying to gain 'lateral' separation.  Seeing this the natural instinct of any bandit -- often with knowing why -- is to turn back towards you to recreate the pure Head-On merge, and thus deny separation until you acutally pass each other, usually with someone getting a face full.

If you try to dive under him you are going for 'vertical' separation, which is the better choice.  However, do it too soon (which may be your problem) and/or stay straight on your same heading as you do it, and he can possibly follow your movement downward long enough by going nose-down himself, to shoot you before you pass under.

Anticipation and timing in properly avoiding the HO and setting up for a Lead Turn is everything.  Appear to offer the level Head-On engagement at first, keeping your speed well up (you will bleed some off as necessary in a few moments).  Do everything to make him think you are a HO monkey looking for a free, ripe banana.  Just before or as you reach 1000 ft. range from him, dive for about 500+ ft. of separation.  You may not get that much, and you don't want to dive too steeply.  Remember range will close extremely fast in the Head-On so don't be late.  1000 ft. is a guesstimate where most HO dweebs just start to fire.

As he is thinking "Shoot! Shoot!" to himself, he will no doubt push is nose down to stay on track and fire a burst.  Most likely your surprise move, done at the right moment, will not allow him to fully counter the dive or recover a good tracking shot, even if you stay straight in your dive.  

However, as EXACT timing is sometimes a problem (the bandit doesn't always cooperation waiting to shoot when you think he should) I usually put in a little jink in my flight path as I dive and approach.  Just the smallest bit of bank angle and/or rudder wiggle just to bring me a couple of degrees off that straight on heading, but still in the same basic flight path.  This causes him to further shift his nose in yet another dimension to stay on me, while I pass underneath. Very difficult.

After I dive, I watch the bandit until I see the range flash to about 400 ft. then I pull up hard the instant before we pass, into a loop (either an Immelmann or Pitchback, depending on what he does) before he can react, thus gaining the 'Lead Turn' advantage on him.

What happens to him is, he so focuses on getting that HO shot, even diving to stay on me as I go under him,  that two things result.

1. He GAINS airspeed in his dive (as I do unless I've carefully managed the throttle as I should) which means he cannot do as tight a turn at the same moment as I can without first bleeding some airspeed and,

2. He so concentrates for the HO shot that he doesn't plan ahead nor react quickly to starting a Lead Turn of his own until I am well into mine.

Now, if going straight and true directly under him (or doing it too early) still gives him too much of a fair shot as he counter-dives, I suggest instead of the little heading jink I mentioned before, pull up and over into a half or even full barrel roll as you approach him.  

Don't do a tight aileron spin right in front of his guns, but a small diameter roll-around his Plane of Motion.  I guarantee he cannot follow that for a shot.  As you finish the roll you should be passing him and you then pull around on his 6 as before.  

The additional advantage of adding the barrel roll is it reduces your speed more quickly (so start the whole sequence with good speed) just before you go into the Lead Turn.  And in following you nose down, then up or maybe left or right for his shot as you roll, the bandit will even more not on-the-ball for a Lead Turn of his own.  He may even lose relational orientation with you for a moment, and need to recover that before he decides his next move.  Even nano-seconds are all to your advantage in the thinking battle of combat that is called OODA.

Early angles through deception, separation, speed management and Lead Turning can be gained on the bandit by this whole maneuver.
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Offline Roscoroo

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merge question
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 01:12:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Well, its different when you let them there for a second or two, and when they get there them selfs ;)



the advantage of giving them your six is to let them see your heading a certian direction ..... now they think your going this way .... when in reality you time out when to turn  and get outta the way as they shoot at the spot they think your heading to .

As this happens you can ussually aquire their six as they over shoot , or go into a maneuver that gains you the advantage .

now this takes awhile to learn and you have to get used to timing , speed and plane type /capabilitys.  
 Each time I died to guys like Lev , Ded,Slap, Wide,Nomak, ect  ,,,, the list goes on and on... I learned that timing ... I also filmed and watched the other guys films ... eventually you learn from mistakes and find the tricks that work .


p,s, dont use my views  use shift tab  and padlock  thats alot better .. i bang the views to get there direction , my speed , and referance points so quickly that my own views in a film can make me sick too .  


"Thx for the film Rosco, I always forget to turn it on. Funny thing though, that fight with you still sticks out in my mind. Was a real stick gripper.
Lambo"

Yea that was a great fight ...I'm still musta been lucky as hell at the top of that dbl loop  you should of had me then .  
Roscoroo ,
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Offline Simaril

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merge question
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2007, 09:13:53 AM »
CAP --

You've gotten a lot of great feedback, and a rockin' film, about your initial question. I remember how long it took to wrap my head around a lot of these concepts, and how long it took to get them in practice. Keep at it!

A lot of this info is pretty specific, about specific situations. Let me give you a simple one that can be used in almost every situation, that is easier to apply and still very effective.

Here's the concept: When flying to throw off tracking attackers, use more than one dimension for movements.

In flight lingo, that's "maneuvering out of plane." (Geometry plane, not aeronautic one.) When you do a break turn, don't stay flat...throw some vertical movement in too. When you loop, slide a little to one side, or throw in a roll element. In general, don't do just one movement at a time, move in a combination of the lateral, horizontal, and vertical.

Less experienced pilots will not cope well with this, and it may save your bacon -- and put you back in  the drivers seat. And, more than once, I've done a lag roll or other evasive, revesed positions with the attacker without getting a good shot....but seen the enemy fly away, probably thinking they didnt want to tangle with someone who could do that.

(If only they knew....but I'll take it!)
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Offline Shuffler

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merge question
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2007, 11:59:43 AM »
I guess I missed what he said he was flying..... regardless, it would be different with each plane you fight.
80th FS "Headhunters"

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Offline CAP1

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merge question
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2007, 03:50:27 PM »
this is GREAT!! i think the i've gotten more excellent suggestions from you guys(and gals?) than i oculd've hoped for. sloehand's epllanation makes a lot of sense......now i understand a bit better.......all aren't trying to Ho, but they simply want to NOT give me the room to do what i want(the dirty bastages:D ).

anyway, i gues i'm gonna die a LOT this tour as i try to learn these maneuvers!! oo yea..i die a lot anyway:rofl


thanks guys!!!!!

john
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline texasmom

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merge question
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2007, 05:17:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by scottydawg
Rosco, I tried to watch that with the recorded views on.  I almost threw up by the second merge.  What the heck?

texasmom you need the AH film viewer.


I've got it. I hosed it up by trying to open it instead of saving, closing all else, and then opening the saved file.
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