Author Topic: Did the Russians or Japanese produce any significant domestic engine designs?  (Read 688 times)

Offline Karnak

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The Sakae 21 is based on the Gnome-Rhône 14K, the Kawasaki Ha-40 is a modified DB601.  The ASh-82 was, I understand, based on the Wright Cyclone, the VK-105 was based on the Hispano-Suiza 12Y.

What about the Nakajima Homare Ha-45 used in the Ki-84?  Or the Mitsubishi Ha-104s used in the Ki-67?

So the question is, were any major engine lines not fundamentally created by the US, UK, France or Germany?
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Offline 1K3

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Homare 45 must be an indigenous design.  Japan tried to make a compact and powerful 18-cylinder radial engine.

How about the Mikulin engines used on MiG-3 and Il-2?  Are these 100% Soviet designs?

Offline joeblogs

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For both countries, they entered the war with their best engines being very close imitations of the Western engines they had licensed in the late 1930s. By the end of the war they were producing engines that embodied at least as much domestic as foreign design.

In the case of the Japanese, they never managed to get these into mass production and reliability was a major problem. In the Russian case, they were mass producing engines. In terms of specific power  (but not reliability) a number of their postwar pistion engines were as good as anything made in the west.

The best source material I've found is Francillon's book on Japanese aircraft (he has a chapter on engines) and Kotelnikov's Russian Piston Aero Engines.

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The Sakae 21 is based on the Gnome-Rhône 14K, the Kawasaki Ha-40 is a modified DB601.  The ASh-82 was, I understand, based on the Wright Cyclone, the VK-105 was based on the Hispano-Suiza 12Y.

What about the Nakajima Homare Ha-45 used in the Ki-84?  Or the Mitsubishi Ha-104s used in the Ki-67?

So the question is, were any major engine lines not fundamentally created by the US, UK, France or Germany?

Offline EagleDNY

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The Ha-45 was supposedly an 18-cylinder development of the Sakae, but it wouldn't surprise me if it drew heavily on the Rhone 18R either.  There was plenty of technology transfer from Germany to Japan, and the Germans had control of the French aircraft industry and used French engines as well as having them make parts for German engines.

Offline joeblogs

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See also short sections of Herschel Smith's History of Aircraft Piston Engines. He does not come quite out and say this, but he implies the important engines used by Japan & Russia were very close descendents of their Western licensors.

Smith describes the Japanese 18 cyclinder engines as their own work (developed from the 9 cylinder engines developed from western designs), but they just didn't run well enough to make a difference in the war.

Of course the Japanese had little access to the essential metals required to boost their engines as much as the US & UK.

I think one can argue about engines like the Ash82. Yes it is based on the 14 cylinder Cyclones (think Mitchell bombers), but the Russians developed this engine much more than did Wright, which had moved on to their 18 cyclinder engine.

By the end of the war the Ash82 was a really fine engine in terms of power for weight, although I think TBO was still rather poor.

-Blogs
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 04:15:48 PM by joeblogs »

Offline Mike Williams

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The Air Technical Intelligence Group interviewed personnel of Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Nakajima post war and issued a series of reports on the design and development of aircraft engines from these Japanese manufacturers.

The Summaries from the Reports and links to the full A.T.I.G Reports follow:

General Design and Development of Mitsubishi Aircraft Engines


Summary:  The Mitsubishi Engine Company organization, policies, procedures, and relations with the government and other engine companies were remarkably similar to those of equivalent companies in the United States.  Methods of engine development and test, both experimental and production were also quite similar to American practice.  The problems encountered, and in the majority of cases satisfactorily solved, were very similar to those encountered in American engineering.  While previous to the war the company had relied heavily on literature published by the Allied nations for its general guidance, it displayed a surprising degree of initiative and ingenuity in meeting problems developing after this supply of information was cut off.  The company displayed a dignity and a pride in its organization, its product, and its reputation and made no apologies even while admitting freely that American engines were superior.  The personnel interrogated are considered well qualified to discuss all aspects of the Mitsubishi engine development.  It is considered that all possible information was furnished as requested and that no reticence or attempt to withhold information were apparent.  It appears that in most aspects of engine development the company was several years behind the Allied nations, but with its capable and aggressive engineering staff it would have continued to produce creditable engines had the war continued.

Kawasaki Engine Design and Development

Summary:  The Kawasaki company produced liquid cooled engines based on the German DB design and air cooled engines on license from Nakajima.  The design efforts of the company were directed primarily toward minor modification of the basic German design and to improvements in supercharging.  The design ability appeared definitely second rate and far below that of both Mitsubishi and Nakajima engineers.  The company is considered of secondary importance in both production and design of aircraft engines.  No features were noted that would be of interest to American designers.

Nakajima Engine Design and Development

Summary:  The Nakajima company as one of the two large Japanese aircraft engine manufactures corresponded very closely in policy, procedures, and methods with the Wright Aeronautical Corporation of the United States.  The general pattern of the company followed that of the Wright Aeronautical Corporation from whom the company had purchased production licenses during the early 1930’s.  When contact with foreign publications and information permitted, the design of Nakajima engines followed in general the leads provided by foreign development, but the company indicated a considerable degree of initiative and capability of independent thought when access to foreign information was cut off.  In most respects the design of Nakajima engines was several years behind that of American engines.  Although excellent performance was claimed for some of the latest experimental engines, no data was available to substantiate these claims, nor was test equipment available of sufficient accuracy to determine true altitude ratings.  Several engines of each model available are being forwarded to T.A.I.C. Anacostia.

Mike

Offline gripen

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Quote
Originally posted by 1K3

How about the Mikulin engines used on MiG-3 and Il-2?  Are these 100% Soviet designs?


The AM-34 (and -35, -38 etc.) were originally developed from the BMW VI. However, these were quite radical developements.

Offline joeblogs

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Very nice - Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by Mike Williams
The Air Technical Intelligence Group interviewed personnel of Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Nakajima post war and issued a series of reports on the design and development of aircraft engines from these Japanese manufacturers.

The Summaries from the Reports and links to the full A.T.I.G Reports follow:

General Design and Development of Mitsubishi Aircraft Engines


Summary:  The Mitsubishi Engine Company organization, policies, procedures, and relations with the government and other engine companies were remarkably similar to those of equivalent companies in the United States.  Methods of engine development and test, both experimental and production were also quite similar to American practice.  The problems encountered, and in the majority of cases satisfactorily solved, were very similar to those encountered in American engineering.  While previous to the war the company had relied heavily on literature published by the Allied nations for its general guidance, it displayed a surprising degree of initiative and ingenuity in meeting problems developing after this supply of information was cut off.  The company displayed a dignity and a pride in its organization, its product, and its reputation and made no apologies even while admitting freely that American engines were superior.  The personnel interrogated are considered well qualified to discuss all aspects of the Mitsubishi engine development.  It is considered that all possible information was furnished as requested and that no reticence or attempt to withhold information were apparent.  It appears that in most aspects of engine development the company was several years behind the Allied nations, but with its capable and aggressive engineering staff it would have continued to produce creditable engines had the war continued.

Kawasaki Engine Design and Development

Summary:  The Kawasaki company produced liquid cooled engines based on the German DB design and air cooled engines on license from Nakajima.  The design efforts of the company were directed primarily toward minor modification of the basic German design and to improvements in supercharging.  The design ability appeared definitely second rate and far below that of both Mitsubishi and Nakajima engineers.  The company is considered of secondary importance in both production and design of aircraft engines.  No features were noted that would be of interest to American designers.

Nakajima Engine Design and Development

Summary:  The Nakajima company as one of the two large Japanese aircraft engine manufactures corresponded very closely in policy, procedures, and methods with the Wright Aeronautical Corporation of the United States.  The general pattern of the company followed that of the Wright Aeronautical Corporation from whom the company had purchased production licenses during the early 1930’s.  When contact with foreign publications and information permitted, the design of Nakajima engines followed in general the leads provided by foreign development, but the company indicated a considerable degree of initiative and capability of independent thought when access to foreign information was cut off.  In most respects the design of Nakajima engines was several years behind that of American engines.  Although excellent performance was claimed for some of the latest experimental engines, no data was available to substantiate these claims, nor was test equipment available of sufficient accuracy to determine true altitude ratings.  Several engines of each model available are being forwarded to T.A.I.C. Anacostia.

Mike

Offline Karnak

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Thank you for the info joeblogs, Mike Williams.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-