Combat Trim

[tommygun]

Does combat trim slow the aircraft down at all? There are times I am in the same aircraft but cannot catch or sometimes get caught by the exact same plane. No bomb load and usually 50% fuel or less. P51D and F6F are my planes of choice.

[detch01]

No. Combat trim doesn't have an affect on speed.



Cheers,
asw

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by tommygun
Does combat trim slow the aircraft down at all? There are times I am in the same aircraft but cannot catch or sometimes get caught by the exact same plane. No bomb load and usually 50% fuel or less. P51D and F6F are my planes of choice.

The problem you are probably facing is different Energy states, or the other guy running with less fuel (lighter and faster), or a cleaner wing (no DT's, no ord was taken originally).  

From the Aces HighII Training Corps Website.

Combat Trim is a feature of Aces High that makes managing trim much easier in most situations. Since the nature of a computer simulation makes trim conditions much more important than they would be in real life, Combat Trim (CT) is used to decrease the workload under many conditions. With no CT, you would be messing with the manual trim keys much of the time and be unable to perform well without manual trim. While folks with large expensive flight control systems are able to map the trim functions to extra hat switches and such, it put those of us with simple joysticks at a distinct disadvantage. To even the playing field a bit and reduce the workload, HiTech Creations built Combat Trim. CT is a system that automatically adjusts the trim tabs on your aircraft while in flight to get you "close" to an in trim condition within the normal flight envelope. While CT does automatically adjust your trim for you, it does not get the trim exactly right. If you are just cruising around on your way to a fight in Aces High, as long as CT is enabled you should be able to let go of the stick and have the aircraft stay on a straight and level course, or at least close.

The most important thing to understand about CT is it's limitations. CT does not work immediately or exactly, it does not work well at very high or very low speeds, and it does not take into account things like flaps. Basically, CT is simply a table of pre-generated trim settings for various airspeeds with the aircraft in a clean condition. (Aerodynamically clean, meaning no flaps or gear deployed.) As your speed and altitude change, CT automatically adjusts your trim tabs for you to get close to a balanced trim condition. While CT is fine for just cruising around looking for a fight, when you actually engage in combat, you may or may not want to use CT depending on the conditions. The first limitation of CT is that it's table has a relatively small range of speeds for which it has corresponding trim conditions. Although I do not know the exact numbers, in my estimation any speed below about 150 or over about 400 depending on the plane tends to be outside CT's scope of adjustment. That means that as I dive to high speed for an escape, CT won't compensate for that high speed, and will make it much more difficult to pull out of the dive. At low speeds such as those experienced in a sustained angles fight, CT may not give me enough up elevator trim for a proper center point. Being out of trim in a low speed turn fight can make maneuvering more difficult, and it can make it very difficult to set up a good guns solution. In addition to the low speed, CT does not take into account the effect of deploying combat flaps on your trim condition. Since many aircraft make use of combat flaps in low speed air combat, this can lead to an aircraft that is far out of trim, and the resulting control issues and problems setting up a stable shot.

[Krusty]

You can be in the same plane, but be slower, he can be faster, the time it takes you to accelerate is too great and he either gets away or catches you before you get to max speed (which the other guy might already be flying at, or faster if he made a dive).

There's no simple way to say "we're in the same plane, he can't outrun me" - because it depends on too many things.

[evenhaim]

u also might be causing urself more drag...

[tommygun]

How!:

[Bronk]

Originally posted by tommygun
How!:

Not adding rudder to center the slip indicator during a turn.



Bronk

[tommygun]

Thank you. I'll look for that.

[mtnman]

Or zig-zagging around dodging his bullets (he can fly a straighter, shorter path, without the drag associated with maneuvering...)(I use this one a lot.  Spray at the faster guy in front of you to get him to dodge / squirm around a bit.)(Like anything else in AH, being advantaged here can cause you to be disadvantaged, or vice versa...)( The faster pursuer is easier to get the overshoot on, etc...)

Or pulling too hard on turns, etc...  When trying to accelerate in order to catch someone, or get away from someone, SMOOOOTH flying helps.  Just do some subtle maneuvers if you need to dodge some bullets, but don't get carried away.  If you're too subtle, you'll know it!

Or being heavier than the plane you are trying to be faster than.  A pony with full fuel is heavier than one that is on 1/4 fuel.  The heavier plane has the same lifting area as the lighter plane.  So a slightly higher AoA should be required to fly the same path.   Higher AoA = higher drag.  After several years in AH, I'm still not good at reading the enemy planes fuel gauges  :^(  It could be argued that SA could be used here to give you some valid clues though.

Or flying a flightpath that allows your pursuer to "cut corners".  You aren't actually causing yourself more drag here, maybe, but the effect can be the same.  This one can actually be used to your advantage as well, which is obvious if you are the pursuer.

I'll sometimes fly a flightpath that allows my pursuer to cut corners, just to mislead him.  Maybe I want to drag him out away from the crowd, but I'm faster and don't want to outdistance him or cause him to give up chasing me.  Alowing him a corner to cut can keep him interested, since he'll think he's catching up to me.  Done right it can even cause the pursuer to think he's faster than you (depending on his SA skills).( A devious way to "hide E".)

Overall, you probably cause much more "drag" by the way you fly, than is actually due to the plane design.  So two identical planes, flying the same maneuver but with different pilots, probably won't end the maneuver with identical E.  Generally, it is to your advantage to burn less E than your opponent.  That's not always the case, but it is a good starting point.

Even when you know how to utilize a lower E state to your advantage it's still important to know how to be "E efficient".  E is easy to blow, but harder to regain.  Like money.  It's to your advantage to have more than the other guy.  But it's amazing what some people can do with little or nothing...

MtnMan

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by detch01
No. Combat trim doesn't have an affect on speed.



Cheers,
asw

Well I respectfully disagree, a  bit.  At high speeds, a pony w/ combat trim on has a tendency to go nose up, if you leave combat trim on, and you must fight this with a little down elevator . A pilot who turns CT off and manually trims will be a bit faster as a result.

[detch01]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Well I respectfully disagree, a  bit.  At high speeds, a pony w/ combat trim on has a tendency to go nose up, if you leave combat trim on, and you must fight this with a little down elevator . A pilot who turns CT off and manually trims will be a bit faster as a result.

You're absolutely right. At high speeds, especially in the pony, when the my nose starts to rise I automatically hit nose down trim which turns off CT and that lets me stay faster longer. It's so close to second nature for me to do that, that it never entered my mind when I first replied. Good catch Steve


Cheers,
asw

[mtnman]

Yea, I've noticed this too.  I think this is why they say CT doesn't work well in  the fast and slow areas of the flight envelope.

I really like CT for general flying around, on the way the fight, or RTB, but turn it off when I fight.  It really does things I don't like with flaps etc.  I've also noticed it won't trim me out right when I'm only carrying one DT on my Hog.

MtnMan

[SteveBailey]

I use CT to fly around but once I get any kind of vert rope going I shut it down.  It really makes it much easier to flop that nose back down from a stall. Same if I get into a brutal knife fight at or near stall speed.*


* The author of this post makes no claim at having any skill whatsoever in our cartoon planes.

Paul, I keep my ele trim on the stick for the same reason.  I can specifically remember times when I've reeled in a pony because of being able to eek out that extra smidge of E. Of course it could have been that I had a bit more E to start but I'd like to think that properly trimming the bird got me there.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by mtnman
 It really does things I don't like with flaps etc.  
MtnMan

I bet this is really pronounced, in big blue, compared to other planes

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
I bet this is really pronounced, in big blue, compared to other planes

Not especially. 95% of the time I leave CT on. Many aircraft have a tendency to pitch up slightly at high speeds. I counter that as you do, having my elevator trim on my throttle. For the P-38L or P-47D-40, you must turn off CT to have the dive recovery flaps work properly. CT will counter the pitch-up induced by those flaps with down elevator displacement.

However, at low speeds I seldom bother to change to manual trim.

Near stall speed, with or without CT, I've never had another player out-turn me if we're both in F4Us or F6Fs. Most players have no idea where the absolute limits are, much less fly to that limit and stay there indefinitely.  

I've tested every fighter in the game (and some bombers too) and have concluded that the minimal turn radius is unaffected by having CT on or off. However, with it on, you will have to counter CT's  tendency adjust elevator position. Once you adapt to this, you will find that it does not change the result. It does change the "feel". Which is why some pilots swear that turning off CT makes a difference. It really doesn't change the turn radius, but turning it off just feels better as you are not fighting the CT inputs. Over-compensating for those CT inputs is what causes some pilots to struggle with dipping wings and snap stalls. With practice and a gentle hand, those issues are avoided.

My regards,

Widewing