Gun crazy Swiss

[Curval]

LOL

A country is only a utopia if you can carry weapons around???  

Do you guys realise how stupid that is?

ITS REALLY STUPID.

[storch]

no. everyone knows utopia is where grown men wear shorts to work.

[moot]

Originally posted by LambChop
- could be avoided, if you would stop shooting your mouth off.

Is that what you told Tomato?  You would blame lazs so easily for calling you for exactly what you are, and use it as an excuse to post more of the garbage that got you banned multiple times already.
Get a clue.. there's probably better things for you to do than parade your BS to get a rise out of the Lazs and AWMacs of this forum.

Curval - A Utopia allows you to do anything, no matter how trite or essential.  That includes guns.

[Curval]

lol

I assume then that there would be guns in a utopia for shooting holes in paper or possibly garbage (actually would there be any garbage in a utopia?).  There shouldn't be any need for a gun for defense in a utopia.

Making holes in paper is certainly a noble pursuit.

[moot]

No less noble than any other form of sportsmanship or craftsmanship, like running after a bag full of air and cheering everytime it gets past an imaginary rectangular boundary of some sort.
I doubt you do none of these sorts of things, and that you wouldn't if you lived in a Utopia.

The only unquestionably noble pursuit is of human progress to release mankind from its poverties: of being restrained to this single planet, of depending on others to sustain ourselves materialy, of the undisciplined mind that wastes its limited time to live on junk or to suffice itself with mediocre or minimal progress, etc.  
Somewhat like striving to make Utopia happen, or get as close to it as we might.  That would start with surviving to strive for it, which wouldn't happen if you were a Tibetan monk walking across an empty stretch of land with a Chinese bullseye on your head, etc.

[lazs2]

what is wrong with making holes in paper? or tin cans or bad guys for that matter?   Is it any less noble than smacking a little ball around with a club trying to knock it into a hole?    A gun can put meat on the table or stop any kind of tyranny..   that seems fairly noble.    

I have heard some here say they can defend themselves with golf clubs or cricket paddles but to hunt with them seems a little less than noble.

beetle/ferndale/lambchop...  I am making you be dishonest?  

lazs

[Curval]

Nothing wrong with it...I'm just "surprised" it is a prerequite for a utopian society.

[lazs2]

I don't believe in a utopian society.. don't even want one really.   there would be no room for any of us in one.

lazs

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by LambChop
- could be avoided, if you would stop shooting your mouth off.

Voted lamest statement on the BBS 2007........even for the Beetlings of this world.

[Charon]

I think the most obvious thing that gets overlooked by the pro gun control folk is the scale of the actual problem. There is a focus on gun crime in the US media that goes beyond just "bad news sells." For example.

The nutjob that killed the five Amish school kids received 24/7 media circus coverage for at least two weeks. It not only included the facts of the crime but days of editorial focus on the issue. A few months ago a man in a nearby community set fire to a house and killed I believe it was 4-5 children. It barely made the local daily papers like the Trib, and then only for a day. Same impact on socitey, far different coverage.

The Cho guy at VT got his 24/7 media circus -- exactly like he planned. He even sent a press kit to NBC. No calls for sensible restrictions on the 1st amendment though. Regardless, as horrific as his crime was, and leaving aside the concealed carry debate and "find your victims here" zones it was also ignored that factually, arson is the primary mass killer and alcohol and motor vehicle do a pretty good job as well. In fact, firearms are fairly low on the list for professional mass killers -- terrorists -- if they can access any number of better methods.

The reality in America is, if you are not involved in urban criminal activity your personal risk from firearm violence is very small. Just look at the statistics with an open eye.

5 per 100,000 - not 5 per 100 or 5 per 1000 even. Would you feel any safer, realistically, if it was 2 per 100,000 or 1 per 100,000? Especially since, at least using Chicago PD info, AT LEAST 3 of those 5 are criminals killing criminals.

Risk by comparison x 100,000:

firearms - 5/2
Automobiles - 14
Tobacco - 650
Alcohol - 150
Heroin - 80 (fully banned, btw)
Cocaine - 4 (fully banned, btw)


And then there is Working for a living - 4. It's actually safer to be a criminal than to work for a living in the US

And Curval,

Bermuda may indeed be a utopia, but apparently crime, including firearm violence, is on the rise. Criminals are even smuggling in guns. Another utopian model in the region to look at with similar gun laws is Jamaica. Jamaica used to be as tranquil as Bermuda -- where the economic disparity was overlooked and the racial divide was not as important -- but a tipping point was passed in the 1970s and society changed. The have nots woke up.

You  are likely very comfortable with the social stability in Jamaica today, where the social norms are respected and cultural stability helps circumvent some of the economic disparity. As long as there are enough jobs, and there is enough connection to tradition where people know their places in society --  all is swell -- but for the occasional stolen scooter. There of course is the promise that if things turn bad, only the police will have guns and the police will be on your side. You better hope that is true, because I bet you have an awful lot of cool expensive stuff in your house and a pretty wife that a criminal element would like to get their hands on if given the chance.

Of course, if things ever got that bad I imagine the white flight to other English speaking countries from the bankers and other haves would keep the airlines hopping for months.


BTW, here is a good article on some of these issues:

Probably in no other country is the devastation caused by restrictive firearm laws more evident than it is in Jamaica. Much of the criminality present today can be traced directly back to the Gun Court Act of 1974, intended to "take guns off the streets, out of the hands of criminals, and to lock up and keep gunmen away from decent society."

Instead, it has accomplished exactly the opposite. The Gun Court took guns only out of the hands of Jamaica's law-abiding, leaving them at the mercy of the criminals and the state. The abject failure of the Gun Court Act to achieve its stated purpose was pointed out in the Gleaner on February 1: "Twenty-seven years after the Gun Court was established as a division of the criminal justice system illegal guns remain a plague on society."

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel091001.shtml

Charon

[Curval]

Charon,

I didn't claim that Bermuda was a utopia....it certainly isn't.  There is no such place on earth.

I was merely commenting on Moot's suggestion that there could not be a utopia without guns.

Jamaica's real troubles began as a result of becoming Independent, something I pray never happens here.

[moot]

It's not guns per se so much as something as idealized as 'utopia' by principle allowing for everything from furry sheep to fembots to guns or whatever it is that floats your boat.
Utopia showed up in this topic from Angus.. I certainly don't believe in it either, nor that guns would be the end all be all of such a world or a symptom of it.

[Charon]

Personally,

I don't think the US or most any place qualifies as a utopia for a variety of reasons. One man's utopia is another's hell.

I enjoy firearms from both a collector and hobby/shooting standpoint. I ultimately still appreciate the fact that it does give the people some final measure of power against the government that is "nice" to have. And, even though I will likely never  need to use a firearm for self defense, should I have to it leaves the final control over my life and death in my hands.

I've seen nothing that even remotely convinces me that firearm bans work, or impact crime in any measurable way. I can look at other bans to see how easily they are bypassed by criminals, and look at data from cities, regions and countries that have various levels of restriction that indicate the common cliche -- criminals don't obey laws -- is true. If a criminal wants a gun, a black market will supply one. I see a lot of politicians that blame the tool -- the gun -- for their crime problems becasue that is a lot safer, and a lot easier, than trying to address the actual social cause of the criminality. All of this at the expense of people like myself.

Lately, I've watched some of those prison documentaries where they go into a maximum security wing and show the types of personalities and what daily life involves, etc. I have absolutely no doubt that should I encounter one of these individuals, the ONLY protection I would have that would give me ANY chance would be a gun. Even if he had a gun (in fact, I would likely have most of the advantages in that situation).

These criminals are closer to animal predators than human beings. They will kill without giving it a second though. They have a level of raw physical visiousness that would be stunning in an attack. They work out heavily, they are tough, they have been part of dozens of fights. It would likely be a one-punch fight. Finding one in your house in the middle of the night would be no different than finding a rabid wolf in your house.

Now, as I noted it is very unlikely that I will have to defend myself from a criminal. Firearm violence is demonized far out of proportion to actual risk. Home invasions are somewhat rare here outside of those that are drug crime related (though one just happened in the upper scale "handgun free" suburb of Wilmette). I have managed to avoid making wrong turns into bad neighborhoods for decades, including years spent living in Chicago. I was mugged once, just for kicks I believe, when I was leaving a seedy bar all drunk, but the odds of a battery incident are about 1 in 100 or so and I should have been more on my game in the first place.

But, if a violent, life or death self defense confrontation was to take place on my property, or if we slipped into a period of civil disorder (not something that I feel is entirely unlikely) then the ability to protect myself and my family is one that I feel is important. In fact, it's criminal that law abiding people in the urban hell holes usually find themselves entirely at the mercy of the criminal elements, with virtually no ability to level the playing field given the usual handgun restrictions found in the same urban areas.

Firearm ownership for self defense is a luxury where I live, somewhat, but how many of us would live in one of these inner city hell holes and not want very strongly to have a pistol in the nightstand drawer?



Charon

[Charon]

...I just wanted to point out that this is a thread about Switzerland, if the title is to be believed, and what you describe here ^ is just about as diametrically opposed to Switzerland as it's possible to be. Earlier in this thread, I remarked that it is possible to pass between "gun crazy" Switzerland and across the border into "guns forbidden" Germany, and not even realise it. I visited both countries recently, and also France and Austria within the same trip, and felt completely safe. I saw very little evidence of crime in the regions I visited. Indeed, I saw that a great many cyclists would leave their bikes unattended without locking them in any way, and would even leave their personal belongings in the paniers. I didn't see a gun the whole time I was there, except police at border checkpoints.

That is true of 99.9 percent of "gun crazed" America, as I pointed out. As I noted, there is no statistical reason to live in fear unless you are a gang banger or a street thug living in a really bad community in major city in one of about five counties in the US. I don't see guns except at the range. I have left my garage door up all night in the past, and except for a friendly note from the police nobody else seemed to notice. I wasn't all that panicked when I found out. My community isn't super great, but no real problems. I could move into a community with twice the crime rate and not worry all that much. I might be more concerned about keeping the doors locked. There are only a select number of neighborhoods, even in a city like NY, LA or Chicago, where that would be different.

And, I imagine you find select neighborhoods throughout Europe where you find a different way of life. I know that is the case in the UK, and France and Germany. In some, homicide -- even firearm homicide -- matches the per capita US urban experience and I believe more will in coming years. I also know that in Amsterdam the longevity of an unlocked bike is not all that great (yet I never felt particularly threatened while I was there). While I might have less to fear from firearm homicide in other countries compared to the tiny amount I have to fear from that today in the US, I would likely have more petty crime to deal with - the home Invasion and Chav thing (though I imagine the real threat from those is also somewhat reduced past the media hype).

Ultimately, firearm ownership is a final control over my life and limb should something rare happen. Since life and death is all or nothing, it's an important issue for me but not one I worry about. You cannot concealed carry in Illinois, but if you could I doubt I would make the effort.

I have far more to fear from a receptionist after too many jello shots than I do from firearm violence. I have had friends killed by alcohol. Friends killed by cars. Friends killed by alcohol and cars. Family killed by the pharma/medical industry. Firearm violence doesn't register, and I'm hardly unique there. Can it happen -- yes. Is it likely, or even a part of general daily life -- no.

Charon

[lazs2]

so  what beetle/lambchop/ferndale is saying that it is the people not the guns.

good.. we all agree.   also, as charon points out.. no matter how nicey nice... a mob is not human... no civilization there at all.   I have seen mobs and want no part of em but if one comes to me... I want to be armed.  

lazs