Author Topic: The God Arguement  (Read 6198 times)

Offline Vulcan

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The God Arguement
« Reply #255 on: June 27, 2007, 03:22:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
vulcan... as I have stated.. I am not a christian.   You may or may not be dishonest as an athiest..  the ones on most athiest sites don't seem that dishonest... they admit that they have a fervent belief that has nothing to do with anything scientific or logical...  a simple religion of athiesm.. they admit that they have an agenda.. that they hate christians and other religious people (their real hard on seems to be for christians tho)

If you openly admit these basic tennents of athiesm then...  you are not dishonest about it.

If you are simply an agnostic who leans towards not believing in god... well so be it.

You can't be an "athiest light" tho... you either buy the whole athiest package or you don't.   Just as a thiest buys the whole god thing.

lazs


I don't like christianity, but I do like *some* christians, just like I don't like some athiests. But I do like some religions, buddhism for exampe (which is a religion that doesn't necessarily believe in god nor attempts to explain creation).

Where does that put me in your books?

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #256 on: June 27, 2007, 03:29:48 PM »
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Vulcan et al,

...

First off, almost every Christian theologian and for that matter historian is unbelievably frustrated at the damage Dan Brown and his "Da Vinci Code" have done by creating a popular but totally inaccurate history of the development of the Bible in general and the NT canon in particular.

- SEAGOON


seagoon, for your sanity - I've never read the book nor watched the movie. Deliberately :)

Although I did take great interest in recent developments around the Judas document.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #257 on: June 27, 2007, 07:01:54 PM »
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Originally posted by phookat
No worries, I know I've made a lot of posts in this thread. :)  This solves the problem of responsibility, as I acknowledged to Shuckins in another post.  However, it does not solve the issue of vicarious forgiveness, which is still a wrong thing to do or even claim to be able to do.


I'm still slow in catching up. All men (including women) have a sinful nature. How exactly we came by this is subject to debate. I'll lean on C.S. Lewis once more for  his description of sin as being nothing more than being centered around self. We were not created to live for ourselves apart from God. At some point, mankind desired and acted to live for himself. We all suffer this and God calls it sin. Only through following Christ can we be forgiven our selfishness and learn to live for God.

That is a basic tenet of Christianity. It isn't about acquiring enough points to go to heaven. It is about changing your very nature in such a way as to enable you to live in God's presence. God will not tolerate sin so he made a way for us to be free from it. Death is only the beginning of a new life which will likely hold more challenges and excitement than we can possibly imagine.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: phookat
« Reply #258 on: June 27, 2007, 10:19:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
OK, tell us what you think happens to those who do not accept Jesus as their personal saviour.  What happens to these people in the afterlife?
These are the scriptures that guide my thinking on the matter.  

Ecclesiastes 9:5 states "For the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . "  So, the dead have simply ceased to be.  Other parts of the Bible refer to those who are dead as being "asleep" in death (examples, Acts 7:60, 1 Corinthians 15:6).  Then there is John 11:11-14: " . . . 'Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.'  Therefore, the disciples said to him, 'Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.'  Jesus had spoken, however, about his death.  But they imagined he was speaking about taking a rest in sleep.  At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: 'Lazarus has died', . . . "

The raising of Lazarus from the dead also speaks to the fact that when we die, we do not go to Heaven.  If Lazarus had gone to Heaven, raising his body would have been rather cruel.  So, when we die, it is much like being asleep -- we know nothing at all.

Now you have to put this into the context of God's original purpose for Humans when he created Adam and Eve.  Humans were meant live forever as caretakers of the Garden of Eden and all of Earth.  By disobeying God, Adam and Eve brought death upon themselves and their offspring, and the conflict between God and Satan was set in motion.  (Note, he did not tell Adam that because he disobeyed he would be eternally tormented in Hell . . . rather, God told him in Genesis 3:19  "You will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken.  For dust you are, and to dust you will return.")

Fast forward to Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds."  Again, if we all went to Heaven after we died, there would be no reason for the mass resurrection of the dead or of Judgement Day.

"According to their deeds" is an important phrase.  It holds out the hope that anyone, even those who did not come to know God's word, can still be judged favorably if they lead a clean life.  Those who actively opposed God, on the other hand, will surely be judged unfavorably and suffer the second death, which is to say, total oblivion.

So there, then, is your literal "afterlife."  Mankind (the ones who accept God's Will and are therefore judged favorably) returns to the original purpose for our existance -- to live on a Paradise Earth, forever, caring for it in God's name (Genesis 2:15, Revelation 21:1-4).
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #259 on: June 28, 2007, 04:45:00 AM »
Interesting. Why was all the truth in the world written back then?

Is there any truth to be discovered today that deserves to be in the Bible?

Who decided when the writing of the Bible ended? Did it end when the people living the days of Jesus deceased or where these written well after his death? What is the defining date when the wisdom of men ended and all that was written to that date was the only truth?

If our truth today is not fit for the Bible then why is the truth of that day more fit to our days? Or we could just simply accept the truth of that day and obey it to the end of the world no matter how our existence and understanding develops?

It is handy to use all kinds of references to ancient writings or letters and pieces of them but what are these grasping? Some ancient wisdom of God and his will and existence that we cannot possibly possess today?

My point is that according to Seagoons post I understood that the Bible is a man made truth cleaned of any opposition and confusion so it is merely a picture of the religion of its day, not today, and not that of eternity.

Of course I'm not sure if that is good. Maybe it is.

-C+
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Offline SirLoin

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: phookat
« Reply #260 on: June 28, 2007, 05:00:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280

"According to their deeds" is an important phrase.  It holds out the hope that anyone, even those who did not come to know God's word, can still be judged favorably if they lead a clean life.  Those who actively opposed God, on the other hand, will surely be judged unfavorably and suffer the second death, which is to say, total oblivion.



So if i didn't know God but led a "clean life", i "might" be let in?

However,if i opposed God and led a clean life..eternal damnation...Sounds rather hypocitical to me.



Nice person this God...And if he doesn't like whats goin on in this planet he created,he'll tell someone to build an arc so he can flood the earth again and murder billions of people?.."Thou Shalt Not Kill" ,remember that one allmighty hypocrite?

Remember i brought up "Fear" as the cornersone of religion?

i rest my case
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #261 on: June 28, 2007, 08:03:50 AM »
I am pretty sure that god allows us to create our own hell right here.

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #262 on: June 28, 2007, 08:19:06 AM »
Look guys, what's your beef?  Several Christian posters have already stated that a literal burning Hell may not be scriptural.  If that is indeed the case, the following verse becomes of great importance:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Pretty straightforward isn't it?  

Undoubtedly God, being a gentleman, has laid out his plan for the afterlife in a pretty straightforward way.  If you sin, you cannot enter into his presence when you die.  Therefore, your soul returns to the state of nothingness from which it came prior to your conception.  In such case, you won't even be aware that you no longer exist.  Accepting his plan for the continued existence of the soul is up to the individual.

What could be more fair?  Your fate is entirely in your own hands.



There are some Christians who believe that Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection paid the price for everyone's sins, and therefore salvation is universal.  

I don't buy it for a second.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 08:22:58 AM by Shuckins »

Offline Charge

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« Reply #263 on: June 28, 2007, 08:25:16 AM »
What actually is "sin" and who defines it?
I mean that its definition varies quite a bit.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #264 on: June 28, 2007, 08:30:51 AM »
since I have made enemies of the "athiests" on this board it is only fair that I say....

I don't think the christian god will send me to hell even tho I do not accept jesus christ as my savior.   If he does.... well... so be it... I guess I was wrong.

lazs

Offline Hazzer

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« Reply #265 on: June 28, 2007, 08:53:17 AM »
I'm an Athiest and do not consider you my enemy Laz2 :)
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #266 on: June 28, 2007, 09:04:52 AM »
thank you hazzer... normally people of your religion are very intolerant.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #267 on: June 28, 2007, 09:25:30 AM »
Anyone in specific?  I don't hate you either, though I'm annoyed with your silly "atheism is a religion" arguments because you should know better but have some sort of agenda that prevents you from being honest.  

I still agree with you on the stuff that really matters, like our fading liberties and the danger that strong central government puts our constitutional rights to.
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Offline Donzo

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« Reply #268 on: June 28, 2007, 10:16:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
There are some Christians who believe that Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection paid the price for everyone's sins, and therefore salvation is universal.  

I don't buy it for a second.


Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection did not make salvation universal.  It made the potential for salvation universal.  It's still up to the individual.

Offline phookat

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« Reply #269 on: June 28, 2007, 11:11:40 AM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'll lean on C.S. Lewis once more for  his description of sin as being nothing more than being centered around self. We were not created to live for ourselves apart from God. At some point, mankind desired and acted to live for himself. We all suffer this and God calls it sin. Only through following Christ can we be forgiven our selfishness and learn to live for God.
I'm afraid I'll have to repeat myself, as you haven't addressed my point.  I know that's what the Christian belief is.  I think that is an immoral belief.  The word "forgive" has a very specific meaning, it doesn't just mean "eliminate".  You can believe that our selfishness will go away if we follow Christ (a baseless belief, but not necessarily an immoral one), but you can't claim we are "forgiven" of our selfishness until the actual victim of that selfishness forgives us.  Once again, God/Christ is not in a position to do this.