Author Topic: Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution  (Read 2246 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2007, 10:32:12 PM »
In a nutshell, this antagonism between 'furballers' and 'toolshedders' are basically a product of the game system. It's not because furballers are always carefree bunch of salamanders, nor because the tool-shedders are pathetic bunch of griefers in a desperate bid for attention, that this 'problem' persists.


 Logically, from a 'toolshedder' point of view, the most contested areas on the map are more or less impregnable. Every perceivable 'attack' in the game is essentially tactical in nature, not strategical. The most deadly coordinated attack possible in the game is knocking out the field hangars - but frankly a fat lot of good it does when there's another enemy airfield functioning within a 15~20 mile radius of the target field. The 'strat' targets effect the game in a most negligible manner, and as such, there is no true means to really weaken and effect the enemy on a lasting, global scale.

 Besides, no matter how many enemies you shoot down, they reup in an instant. The number of enemies in a given contested location always stays the same. There's no such thing as a 'weakening' defense, and the only way to force the other side to succumb is to simply put in more manpower, and use raw strength to discourage the enemy from upping from a certain airfield. There is no such thing as a 'tactical plan' that really works.

 Therefore, every toolshedding attack is semi-effective for only about 15~30 minutes max. The only thing they can do to really make difference in the war game is to piss a lot of people off by continuously keeping the hangars, barracks, or ordnance down.. and you can't do that in a bomber that climbs to 18k. Bam! There you have it - the reason why bombers are degenerated into a over-bloated jabo roles.

 Simply put, the toolshedders have no purpose in the game, because the game doesn't have any strategic aspect at all. Therefore, to achieve any kind of satisfaction, the toolshedder has no choice but to either resort to continuous suicidal runs in a heavily populated area, or do milkruns in a non-populated area.



 On the other hand, from a furballers perspective, frankly nothing changes whether or not they respond to calls. The only real way of winning the game is to simply have more guys on your side - whether by pure country numbers, or by gangbanging the third country with the other country. Doing a 'mishun' plan against a well defended enemy territory is fruitless and a waste of time, and doing a milkrun capture against undefended enemy fields is total boredom. There's no excitement in any of the two, so they'd rather just forget all the 'war' aspect, and purely restrict the MA environment to aerial combat. The environment is more dynmaic than the DA can offer, and that's just about it for the furballers.



 Ideally, the solution is to give a coherent objective inside the game, in which both the furballers and toolshedders can work with on a level ground. For instance, let's imagine that there's a some kind of long-term, global effect attritional strat object in the game - a fuel refinery (or a network of refineries) that governs the entire fuel supply of a whole country. A bomb run or two doesn't make it flinch, but a steady stream of bombruns for many in-game days may effect the enemy as a whole, and if left undefended and batterd for a long time, the effects will finally take its toll, and ALL the airfields in that country will start suffering from low fuel... until it becomes nearly impossible to up sorties that lasts more than 10 minutes or something.

 Now, if there's a target like that, the toolshedders finally have something worth their time invested. It doesn't regen/replenish in 15 minutes like other objects. The effect is long-term, lasting for days, and very severe, a global-scale effect. Toolshedders will naturally prefer flying there over and over again, and bombing it to smithereens for many days.

 The furballers may remain uninterested for a while. But after some signs of fuel starvations begins to show, some of the furballers will move over and actually try stopping toolshedder raids against their strats. Enemy resistance becomse higher, toolshedders will begin to suffer, will call in more escorts, and voila - a mini-scale "8thAF" situation in the MA.

 

 Basically, the key is to build a system where both furballers and toolshedders can enjoy the game as a separate working part of a same war machine - instead of two totally different parts of a country that cannot understand each other.


 It's not impossible. It just hasn't arrived yet.

Offline Kami

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2007, 10:50:09 PM »
nice, i like it.

Offline Raptor

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2007, 10:58:46 PM »
Hey... since some people are calling the P38 a buff.. does that mean I can shoot friendly fighters? Like the ones that shoot at a plane I just ripped the wings off of?:t

Offline Toad

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2007, 07:26:21 AM »
The solution is to add another layer of complexity?

You guys always come up with the same answer and it never works.

You forget the arenas are lightly populated most of the day. So the crowd logs in at US prime time to find the fuel system is totally degraded by the non-peak hour milkers?

Yeah, that would solve the problem.


Dear Cod, please let HT hurry up and finish Tour of Duty so there will be a place for these guys to call their own. Let the MA return to what it is supposed to be, a simple aerial combat game. Amen.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline TheCage

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2007, 08:26:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 

 Basically, the key is to build a system where both furballers and toolshedders can enjoy the game as a separate working part of a same war machine - instead of two totally different parts of a country that cannot understand each other.


 It's not impossible. It just hasn't arrived yet.



Never thought I would say this Kweassa given our past debates but..........:aok
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 08:35:40 PM by TheCage »

Offline Anyone

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2007, 07:41:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
In a nutshell, this antagonism between 'furballers' and 'toolshedders' are basically a product of the game system. It's not because furballers are always carefree bunch of salamanders, nor because the tool-shedders are pathetic bunch of griefers in a desperate bid for attention, that this 'problem' persists.


 Logically, from a 'toolshedder' point of view, the most contested areas on the map are more or less impregnable. Every perceivable 'attack' in the game is essentially tactical in nature, not strategical. The most deadly coordinated attack possible in the game is knocking out the field hangars - but frankly a fat lot of good it does when there's another enemy airfield functioning within a 15~20 mile radius of the target field. The 'strat' targets effect the game in a most negligible manner, and as such, there is no true means to really weaken and effect the enemy on a lasting, global scale.

 Besides, no matter how many enemies you shoot down, they reup in an instant. The number of enemies in a given contested location always stays the same. There's no such thing as a 'weakening' defense, and the only way to force the other side to succumb is to simply put in more manpower, and use raw strength to discourage the enemy from upping from a certain airfield. There is no such thing as a 'tactical plan' that really works.

 Therefore, every toolshedding attack is semi-effective for only about 15~30 minutes max. The only thing they can do to really make difference in the war game is to piss a lot of people off by continuously keeping the hangars, barracks, or ordnance down.. and you can't do that in a bomber that climbs to 18k. Bam! There you have it - the reason why bombers are degenerated into a over-bloated jabo roles.

 Simply put, the toolshedders have no purpose in the game, because the game doesn't have any strategic aspect at all. Therefore, to achieve any kind of satisfaction, the toolshedder has no choice but to either resort to continuous suicidal runs in a heavily populated area, or do milkruns in a non-populated area.



 On the other hand, from a furballers perspective, frankly nothing changes whether or not they respond to calls. The only real way of winning the game is to simply have more guys on your side - whether by pure country numbers, or by gangbanging the third country with the other country. Doing a 'mishun' plan against a well defended enemy territory is fruitless and a waste of time, and doing a milkrun capture against undefended enemy fields is total boredom. There's no excitement in any of the two, so they'd rather just forget all the 'war' aspect, and purely restrict the MA environment to aerial combat. The environment is more dynmaic than the DA can offer, and that's just about it for the furballers.



 Ideally, the solution is to give a coherent objective inside the game, in which both the furballers and toolshedders can work with on a level ground. For instance, let's imagine that there's a some kind of long-term, global effect attritional strat object in the game - a fuel refinery (or a network of refineries) that governs the entire fuel supply of a whole country. A bomb run or two doesn't make it flinch, but a steady stream of bombruns for many in-game days may effect the enemy as a whole, and if left undefended and batterd for a long time, the effects will finally take its toll, and ALL the airfields in that country will start suffering from low fuel... until it becomes nearly impossible to up sorties that lasts more than 10 minutes or something.

 Now, if there's a target like that, the toolshedders finally have something worth their time invested. It doesn't regen/replenish in 15 minutes like other objects. The effect is long-term, lasting for days, and very severe, a global-scale effect. Toolshedders will naturally prefer flying there over and over again, and bombing it to smithereens for many days.

 The furballers may remain uninterested for a while. But after some signs of fuel starvations begins to show, some of the furballers will move over and actually try stopping toolshedder raids against their strats. Enemy resistance becomse higher, toolshedders will begin to suffer, will call in more escorts, and voila - a mini-scale "8thAF" situation in the MA.

 

 Basically, the key is to build a system where both furballers and toolshedders can enjoy the game as a separate working part of a same war machine - instead of two totally different parts of a country that cannot understand each other.


 It's not impossible. It just hasn't arrived yet.


fantastic ideas, and i wish it would come true too...

...maps would need a redesign, important strat should be near final bases, not on the front line like it is now.

Id prefer one large city, with the strats within. and also get the old bombsite back.

one bomber group wont make the difference, but multiple will, defence would generally KNOW when the bombers are coming and where they are going, unlike now. Bombin rail yards may have a 15minute effect but knocking down the factory itself will have a greater effect over a few days.

Theres so much that can be brought from these sort of plans, but sadly i feel they will get ignored or missed.

Offline Toad

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Toolsheders vs Furballers a solution
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2007, 07:45:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Anyone
but sadly i feel they will get ignored or missed.


Joyfully, I agree with you. I think HT is much smarter than that.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!