Author Topic: Battleships (Read 3191 times)

Coshy · « **Reply #45 on:** June 29, 2007, 02:16:56 PM »

I suggested this back in January, and I'm sure I'm not the first one to suggest something like this. Granted it will probably never be implemented, we cant get some of the current aggrivations addressed (maps etc).

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197547

DiabloTX · « **Reply #46 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:01:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pannono
They could have still sat out there rapin the transports waitin for a repair ship

FYI, it was hit by 3 shells, and the torp hit the UNARMORED rudder, which jammed it 12.5 degrees. If they hadn't tried to turn to evade it, they might have got within range of Luftwaffe air support in France before the Brits got within range. The torps weren't even scratching the paint on the main armor.

A REPAIR ship? Where do you dream this stuff up? Name me ONE Kriegsmarine rapair ship. The RN knew the general vacinity of the Bismarck and could have easily re-routed the convoys around it.

As again, I know what happened to the Bismarck, 3 hits - 2 superficial and 1 mission-ending 'lucky' shot. Funny how any hits are 'lucky' when it's a critical hit. Battleships were designed for 2 things: taking hits and delivering them. As for the torpedo, as has been stated before, there are no 'what if's' when a single conventional weapon of modest delivery can affectively render useless an expensive and vital military asset. Torpedoes weren't a new invention at that time. However, air delivery of the torpedo was and Bismarck's lack of an affective AA suit shows how vulnerable she was. Her rudders should have been better placed and better protected. Also, had she a 4-screw design vs. the 3-screw design she would have been able to better steer via engines with the rudder damage. However, since she was designed with 3-screws, a VERY questionable design choice, her fate was sealed.

Pannono · « **Reply #47 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:49:26 PM »

they still could have launched their planes to kill the swordfish, they could have fired on hood sooner, i could go on and on about what they could have done

Nilsen · « **Reply #48 on:** June 29, 2007, 04:09:23 PM »

Are you saing that the hit on the hood magazine and the hit on bismarcks rudder were well aimed intentional hits and not lucky diablo?

DiabloTX · « **Reply #49 on:** June 29, 2007, 04:42:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nilsen
Are you saing that the hit on the hood magazine and the hit on bismarcks rudder were well aimed intentional hits and not lucky diablo?

Nilsen, for the most part, yes I do, especially the hit on the Hood. Remember the Bismarck straddled the Hood very early in the encounter. Battleships are DESIGNED to be tough, even battlecruisers though not to the extent BB's are. A hit was inevitable. A hit to the magazine, either 15" or smaller shell storage, was a forgone conclusion, Jutland showed this. The RN just never took the time to bring Hood back in for it's armor improvements that was planned for it. It was no more a lucky hit than what the PoW did to the Bismarck. Fire Control had advanced mightly between the world wars. A hit was a given, it was up to the naval designers to cope with this inevitability. Unfortunately for the Hood, that was 20 years too late.

A BB's broadside was designed to be like a stupendously large shotgun blast; at least you hope one shell hits from the broadside but the more the better. If you want to talk about luck, you might want to look up the Warspite's record of the longest hit from a BB to a target at sea. Remember that was an aimed shot as well, very little luck played a part in it.

Also remember the rear gunner of the swordfish that dropped the torpedo was the one that the rear gunner actually told the pilot when to release by hanging over the side and visually aiming. Was it lucky? To a great extent yes it was. Was it aimed and calculated? Yes, to some extent it was as well. Who's to say they weren't aiming for the rudders, or that the rear gunner was thinking the same thing. I think some luck and some skill played a part in this.

But the bottom line is this: One 14" shell crippled the Bismarck in terms of mission completion. The lack of a concentrated AA suit finished her. Not one, zero, nil, none, nada of the swordfish were shot down during all of the attacks, at least none that I know of. She was a grand ship, a mighty ship, but not without her glaring achilles heel(s) much like the Hood.

DiabloTX · « **Reply #50 on:** June 29, 2007, 05:09:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pannono
they still could have launched their planes to kill the swordfish, they could have fired on hood sooner, i could go on and on about what they could have done

Give me a break. What were the Arado's to do? Maneuver in FRONT of the swordfish and hope the rear gunner had a clean shot? Ever launched a seaplane from a ship lateral to it's movement while the ship is at flank speed? Not going to happen.

As for firing on the Hood sooner what would have that accomplished? A quicker death? By keeping the Hood at long distance the Bismarck exploited the Hood's main armor defeciency: plunging fire.

Go ahead with the what ifs...they're pointless in the face of history and it's facts.

Motherland · « **Reply #51 on:** June 29, 2007, 09:55:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DiabloTX
The lack of a concentrated AA suit finished her. Not one, zero, nil, none, nada of the swordfish were shot down during all of the attacks, at least none that I know of. She was a grand ship, a mighty ship, but not without her glaring achilles heel(s) much like the Hood.

If I remember correctly, the swordfish were flying below the firing horizon of the Bismarcks' AA guns. Though Its possible that my mind is making things up...

Not that I dont disagree with you. The Bismark had a fatal flaw in its rudder. But, it was also human error. It was not refueled along with the Prinz Eugen, and was thus forced below full speed in its retreat back to France. If it could have gotten within range of Luftwaffe aircraft faster, it may have been saved...

Then again, if it hadnt hit the Hood's magazines, it may have been sunk in the North Atlantic.

Pannono · « **Reply #52 on:** June 30, 2007, 12:02:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DiabloTX
Give me a break. What were the Arado's to do? Maneuver in FRONT of the swordfish and hope the rear gunner had a clean shot? Ever launched a seaplane from a ship lateral to it's movement while the ship is at flank speed? Not going to happen.

As for firing on the Hood sooner what would have that accomplished? A quicker death? By keeping the Hood at long distance the Bismarck exploited the Hood's main armor defeciency: plunging fire.

Go ahead with the what ifs...they're pointless in the face of history and it's facts.

if they fired sooner, they might have sunk hood before they were hit

Arado Ar 196

1 × 7.92 mm (0.31 in) MG 15 machine gun
1 × 7.92 mm (0.31 in) MG 17 machine gun
2 × 20 mm MG FF cannons
2 × 50 kg (110 lb) bombs

would have ripped swordfish apart

DiabloTX · « **Reply #53 on:** June 30, 2007, 02:31:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pannono
if they fired sooner, they might have sunk hood before they were hit

Arado Ar 196

1 × 7.92 mm (0.31 in) MG 15 machine gun
1 × 7.92 mm (0.31 in) MG 17 machine gun
2 × 20 mm MG FF cannons
2 × 50 kg (110 lb) bombs

would have ripped swordfish apart

Regardless if when the Hood was sunk the PoW would still have pressed her attack, in fact that's exactly what she did. You can't say, nor can I, if things would have been any different. Why do you proceed with 'what if's'? It doesn't change what actually happened. You can come up with as many as you want, it will not change ANYTHING.

Well, let's do this. What if the PoW was actually the KG5? What if Hood was really the Rodney or Nelson?

The Arado's wouldn't have been launched if you would have bothered to read my reply. The swordfish attacked far too quickly for the Bismarck to ready for air ops.

But keep dreaming. Facts are facts. The Bismarck was done in by design flaws.

DiabloTX · « **Reply #54 on:** June 30, 2007, 02:45:13 PM »

BTW Pannono, those 20mm's of the Arado's would have been next to useless against the fabric covered swordfish. Just ask the Emil driver's from their experience's with hurricane's during the Battle of Britain.

Pannono · « **Reply #55 on:** June 30, 2007, 03:34:26 PM »

ok next time i see one ill ask
the brits lost contact with the bismarck, then 24 hrs later a PBY spotted it. u think they would have readied the planes

DiabloTX · « **Reply #56 on:** June 30, 2007, 05:16:51 PM »

Readied the planes for what exactly? Sounds like you think you're smarter than professional sailors. Oh wait, you are, my bad. Carry on.

Pannono · « **Reply #57 on:** June 30, 2007, 06:08:48 PM »

readied the planes for launch u idiot

DiabloTX · « **Reply #58 on:** July 01, 2007, 06:59:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pannono
readied the planes for launch u idiot

Now who's being the idiot. You obviously don't know jack about naval operations. Go back to your ghey "I wanna helicopter" thread and stay out of this one.

Pannono · « **Reply #59 on:** July 01, 2007, 11:58:35 AM »

the heli saw service in WWII so we should get it