Author Topic: Can you stand another 109 thread?  (Read 3295 times)

Offline Spikes

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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2007, 02:16:19 PM »
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Offline toonces3

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2007, 02:17:46 PM »
great posts guys!

Spatula- that explains alot...I assumed (always dangerous) that the G10 on Soda's page was the G14 in game.  I need to re-read that whole section now.

One of the best tidbits I've already seen here is how you all turn the 109 throttled back...I assumed wrongly (again) that it was better to be power on.  WEP?  Heck yeah!  I'll have to practice some turns at 50% and see what that feels like.
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Offline Krusty

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2007, 02:21:59 PM »
E-4 has 10 minutes of WEP, as do all 109 variants. The only thing to have less than 5 minutes of WEP in aces high is the Ki84 (I believe it has 3 mins)

The F-4 cannot out turn a spit16 if flaps are up. If flaps are used it still has serious drawbacks, and only turns 12 feet tighter (almost identical). It can out turn an la7 if no flaps are used, but again is almost equal if full flaps are used.

Don't get me wrong, I do think the 109F4 has a better turn capability, but not because it out-turns 2 specific planes. Plus, most fights aren't simply just low-speed stall fights (so pure turning radius isn't the only factor).

For me it's a toss up for the F-4 and G-2 when you want a better turning 109. The extra horsepower really helps the G-2, even if it's just hauling its own arse around in a circle. On the other hand it doesn't lose much turn radius over the F-4. It depends on if you want just a little more turn or just a little more horsepower. IMO both are better turn fighters than their later brothers.

Offline toonces3

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2007, 02:23:16 PM »
excellent link xanthur- thanks much!
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Offline 1K3

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 03:28:34 PM »
Btw the 109F-4 we have is NOT early war 1941 plane.  109F with 1.42 ata boost was introduced at the same time as 109G-2 in LATE 1942.

What we have here is a performance gap.  We have a 1939 bf 109E and a 1942 Bf 109F-4.  Bf 109F-4 should be detuned to 1941 standards (just like what HTC did to spitfire V :aok ) because right now we virtually have no 1941 Bf 109.

If 109F-4 is detuned to 1941 standards...

* NO wep
* Same top speed at FTH (~380mph), but sea level speed will be 317 mph
* Tnitial climb rate will be slightly less than ~3500 fpm, that's still hundreds more fpm compare to its contemporary... the spit V

:aok
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 03:35:46 PM by 1K3 »

Offline Viking

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2007, 03:59:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
E-4 has 10 minutes of WEP, as do all 109 variants. The only thing to have less than 5 minutes of WEP in aces high is the Ki84 (I believe it has 3 mins)


I just tested it and actually we’re both wrong. I seem to remember a 3 minute WEP in AH1, but I guess HTC upped the WEP time to 5 minutes in AH2 (which I think is generous). Still that is half the time of the other 109’s, and going flat out you’ll still only be 3 mph faster than an A6M5 on the deck. A6M5 also being better in all other regimes of flight and range and guns. The Frank I believe has a 1 minute WEP.


Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The F-4 cannot out turn a spit16 if flaps are up. If flaps are used it still has serious drawbacks, and only turns 12 feet tighter (almost identical). It can out turn an la7 if no flaps are used, but again is almost equal if full flaps are used.


You have to use flaps when stall-fighting 109’s. Not using them makes no sense. Spitfires rarely use flaps though, nor do La-7’s, but when you meet that lone Spit or La with a good stick the F-4 will allow you to prevail with relative ease, while the G-2 needs a better pilot to even out the Spit’s advantages. Not needing a better pilot makes the F-4 the better plane IMHO.


Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Don't get me wrong, I do think the 109F4 has a better turn capability, but not because it out-turns 2 specific planes. Plus, most fights aren't simply just low-speed stall fights (so pure turning radius isn't the only factor).


Both the 109F-4 and G-2 are very good fighters. Relative performance is what matters and comparing the 109’s to the two most prolific and dangerous opponents in the LW arenas is IMHO the only sound way of measuring performance. If you fly either the F-4 or the G-2 you have to fight yourself out of trouble, you can’t run. That means that you will eventually find yourself on the deck with one or more opponents trying to stop you from disengaging. The F-4 has proven itself to me time and time again is such situations, the low speed stability and turning capabilities are astounding.


Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
For me it's a toss up for the F-4 and G-2 when you want a better turning 109. The extra horsepower really helps the G-2, even if it's just hauling its own arse around in a circle. On the other hand it doesn't lose much turn radius over the F-4. It depends on if you want just a little more turn or just a little more horsepower. IMO both are better turn fighters than their later brothers.


As I said earlier relative performance is the important statistic. The G-2 gains 8 mph on the deck over the F-4, but in reality it gains nothing. It is still slower than the Spit, and the Spit still out-accelerates it, and the Spit’s pilot will still not let you go as long as he sees that nice “–“ symbol telling him he’s closing on you. You’ll end up having to turn at some point and engage a superior climbing, accelerating and turning plane. The F-4 allows you to engage with only two of those disadvantages and the F-4’s strength (turning) plays well into the common Spit pilot’s turn and burn style of combat allowing you to negate his other advantages. Good sticks in La-7 loves to saddle up on you. The 109F-4 allows you to deny the La that opportunity, while the G-2 does not. E fighting an La is nearly impossible in both 109’s given the La’s massive advantages in all regimes of flight (assuming a competent La pilot), and stall-fighting an La is very dangerous even in the F-4 if the La pilot knows how to use the throttle and flaps. As with the Spit; a 109F-4 will win a turn fight given equal and competent pilots, the G-2 will not. That said all non-perked rides are at a serious disadvantage against the La-7, its performance is utterly amazing.


1K3 … leave my F-4 alone you little… or else! ;)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 04:42:11 PM by Viking »

Offline Movie

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2007, 04:24:28 PM »
In my opinion 109s suck. They cant turn nor they cant climb only good thing is the firepower and their armor.

Offline Krusty

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2007, 04:33:32 PM »
Movie, you're young and naive, so I'll let you in on a tip here....

109s are considered one of the best climbing aircraft sets in the entire game.

They also turn well, only not as easy-mode as spitfires (so most spit pilots say "they can't turn" when they can)

Offline Bronk

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2007, 04:36:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Movie
In my opinion 109s suck. They cant turn nor they cant climb only good thing is the firepower and their armor.


Your opinion is noted. Not worth the pixels it used,  but it is noted.


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Offline Bronk

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2007, 04:37:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Movie, you're young and naive, so I'll let you in on a tip here....

109s are considered one of the best climbing aircraft sets in the entire game.

They also turn well, only not as easy-mode as spitfires (so most spit pilots say "they can't turn" when they can)



What's easy mode?

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Offline Spatula

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2007, 04:53:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by toonces3
One of the best tidbits I've already seen here is how you all turn the 109 throttled back...I assumed wrongly (again) that it was better to be power on.  WEP?  Heck yeah!  I'll have to practice some turns at 50% and see what that feels like.


All aircraft require some form of throttle control to get the best out of em. The 109s, espcially the K4 really requires a lot of time spent on the throttle as its very easy to build up too much speed in it. Button off as your nose points below the horizon, power up as it goes high is a good start. Sometimes to get your nose over the very top fast its best to chop throttle and use a notch or two of flaps. Knowing when to apply the extreme pulling power of the engine, and when to button it off makes all the difference between success and death. You have to recognise the times when full power is actually hurting your maneuvering intentions and learn to power back to do what you actually intend.
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Offline Nilsen

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2007, 04:59:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
What's easy mode?

Bronk


Most spits and LA7

Offline Lusche

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2007, 05:02:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Most spits and LA7


Don't forget HurriIIC, more "easy" than a La7
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Offline Nilsen

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2007, 05:05:53 PM »
Niki falls in same category too

Offline Bronk

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Can you stand another 109 thread?
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2007, 05:10:21 PM »
Ohh I thought I was missing some . command .
:rolleyes:


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