Author Topic: some luck...  (Read 1265 times)

Offline hammer

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Re: Re: some luck...
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2007, 08:39:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fuzeman
Well, seeing the planes go forward and not backwards, learn the moves forward.

IMO, that was good. :)
:rofl
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Offline dtango

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some luck...
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2007, 02:22:50 PM »
Ahh, yes MWL said it well.  Patience my young padawan.  You've only begun your journey to Jedi Knighthood!  There is much to learn and it takes time to master each and every maneuver, decision, and tactic.  

Resist the temptation of the Dark Side!  Do not be fooled!  This is not a contest of simply the quickness of your hands and feet, the deftness of your eyes, or knowing how to perform basic fighter maneuvers.  This is also a contest of the mind!  Yes, my young padawan, a contest of the mind!  To succeed your mind must be quicker than your own hands and eyes.  Yes, your mind must be even quicker than that of your adversary's mind!  The Jedi Dogfighter knows that if you outsmart your opponents then you've outflown them too.  

The Jedi Dogfighter does not think in terms of maneuvers.  No, maneuvers are only what you see with your eyes.  The Jedi Dogfighter thinks in terms of angles and energy.  Mastering how to exploit angles and energy against your opponent begins with studying many things.  Study you must from the strengths and weakenesses of each plane to things such as when to use a nose-to-nose turn vs. a nose-to-tail turn, and even to the esoteric world of aerodynamics and physics .  It is the key to seeing the world in angles and energy and not maneuvers.

For instance Master Hammer has just discussed the nuances of when to use WEP.  There is no one size fits all rule.  Some people say slowing down means you'll turn inside your opponent, therefore don't use WEP.  Let's look at a diagram from Master Badboy:



If I was in a bF109-E4 at 138 mph against a Spitfire Mk I at 80 mph and both of us were turning, the 109 would be turning a smaller circle (~550 ft radius) compared to that of Spitfire Mk I (~800 ft radius).  On top of that the 109 also would have a turn rate advantage (~20 degrees per second) vs. the Spit (~10 degress per second).  So you see, in this situation the slower plane actually turns worst, not better!  So the faster and more quicker turning 109 should win the fight!  

Well….not exactly.  The 109 might very well lose the fight to the slower Spitfire Mk I if the situation is like the following:



Plane A (RED) represents the 109 (138 mph) in our example while Plane B (BLUE) represents the Spitfire Mk.I (80 mph).  Plane A (109) can turn quicker and tighter (smaller turn radius, greater turn rate).  Let's assume the 109-E4 and Spit Mk.I start abeam of each other.  I've overlaid in light red and blue the turn radius' of both planes to demonstrate that there is a difference in turn circles. At time 1 they turn into each other. At time 2 the 109 reverses the turn to attempt a lead turn because of the angular advantage it has gained thinking "I'm the better turning plane!" while the Spit Mk.I responds in kind in the classic nose-to-nose turn contest. But the Spit Mk.I going at 80 mph even though it has a larger turn radius and slower turn rate compared to 109-E4 somehow ends up with angles on 109-E4 instead at time 4. How did that happen? In this situation the relative difference in speeds with the Spit Mk.I being slower is the deciding factor, not the plane with the better turn radius or the turn rate.

So you see young padawan, this is just small example of what a Jedi Dogfighter needs to be processing through the mind!

Tango, XO
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Offline TequilaChaser

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some luck...
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2007, 02:37:05 PM »
excellent reply dtango, especially the lightened overlaid turn circles........

I would like to request this be posted on the Trainers website as well if you have no objections, dtango.... I would add in "at time .3 possibly though, you mention the spit 1
Quote
Spit Mk.I responds in kind in the classic nose-to-nose turn contest.
 for time .3 but do not mention the number itself, just a thought, .....

is a CLEAR stepping stone from  Basic BFM 101 to Intermediate ACM 202 :aok

thanks for posting

~S~
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline dtango

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some luck...
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2007, 02:48:32 PM »
Why thank you TC :).  You most certainly may use that diagram.  Feel free to post away.  Good suggestion regarding adding the statement about time 3.

Tango, XO
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline duddini

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some luck...
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 10:35:40 AM »
This is great stuff. So in a knife fight, slower doesn't always lead to turning better...............my brain hurts..... :(

Offline dtango

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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2007, 01:35:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by duddini
This is great stuff. So in a knife fight, slower doesn't always lead to turning better...............my brain hurts..... :(

Yep, that's right.  Folks like to use the car analogy when it comes to turn radius.  In a car the slower you go the smaller the turn radius.  

Unfortunately this doesn't apply for airplanes.  Below corner velocity, the slower you go the lower the maximum bank angle the plane can support because you don't have enough airspeed for the wings to generate the lift needed to support a higher g-load for a tighter turn.

That may not matter though like in the illustration I made above.  In a situation where you have repeated nose-to-nose turns (scissors if you'd like) the plane with the least relative forward travel will force the overshoot and gain the angles advantage (assuming the right separation distances to begin with).  That's why slowing down makes great sense in this situation.  

Of course there are counters to this that the faster plane can make.  Also the whole dynamic also changes if the separation distance between the planes are closer as shown in the image below:



In this case the you can see that the slower aircraft with the larger turn radius comes out at the disadvantage and the faster but tighter turning aircraft will get a shot attempt sometime out in Time 5.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline MWL

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some luck...
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2007, 01:20:29 AM »
Greetings,

 Brain hurts does mine.  47N turns, does not.  Must situtational understanding learn I!

Regards,
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 01:23:25 AM by MWL »

Offline Hazard69

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some luck...
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2007, 09:30:53 AM »
HMMMM........................ .............

I think I'll give duddini some company in that corner


GREAT STUFF HERE BTW! Real food for thought!


:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
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Offline evenhaim

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some luck...
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2007, 08:18:02 PM »
great post tango;) :aok
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Offline whiteman

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some luck...
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2007, 01:10:29 AM »
Hello Sir, I won't waste your time with down talk and nonsense which I believe every person deserves.

I've only been playing since Nov 06 and I too have a very hard time shaking cons off my 6. Only time I can shake a con is in a rolling scissor which any decent vet can kill me in. At that point I personally need a country team mate to clear my 6 which I appreciate and thank that person as too get the same courtesy because it's not their duty nor responsibility to do so.

I fly in the MA under Tex01 in the Bish country and would do what I can to help you become a better pilot like many of my squadies and country men have. Good luck and remember it’s only a game when things get tough.

:aok
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 01:13:20 AM by whiteman »

Offline bj229r

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some luck...
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2007, 08:35:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MWL
Greetings,

 Brain hurts does mine.  47N turns, does not.  Must situtational understanding learn I!

Regards,


Do what I do, just keep dropping flaps till it falls outta the sky:aok
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