Question for the Brits on the Board

[Seagoon]

Hi All,

I'm hesitant to set the cat amongst the pigeons again, but I have a quick legal question. I got sent the following question by someone far, far, away, who assumed that because I was from Britain and familiar with Islam I would know whether Imams advocating the violent overthrow of the government could be deported. Specifically, the person sent the following link about a Muslim Rally in which threats were made towards the Blair and the Queen and the violent overthrow of Democracy in Britain and the United States (complete with audio) and the establishment of the Caliphate was wished for:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56503

The questioner asked why the Brown government had not deported these Imams if they had the ability to do so, I responded that I was unsure they had the power to deport them if they were simply preaching Islamic teaching even if it involved cursing the "Kuffar" and their rulers, and calling for the end of democracy and the "struggle" that would establish the caliphate. Certainly that is the case in the USA, but I'm unfamiliar enough with current British laws regarding religious speech to not know that is the case in the UK.

[What I'd really like to do is just get an answer to the question, if only for the sake of my own curiousity. I'm not, I repeat not, asking for another discussion of whether these guys are a "tiny minority" who have "hijacked a peaceful religion" or how much worse Christians fundamentalists are, and yes in advance I know I'm a sinner, that even making reference to these things is hateful, that I'm not particularly intelligent, that George Bush is the cause of nearly all the problems in the world, that the crusades were terrible, that the IRA is mostly made up of professing Roman Catholics and that Serbia is predominantly Serbian Orthodox, and so on. So with that understood, is there a legal impediment to their deportation or is it just impolitic to do so?]

Thanks in advance.

- SEAGOON

[AKIron]

You forgot to mention that "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

[john9001]

the answer is we have to play nice nice with the sensitive muslims. You don't want to upset them or they will start chanting "Allah Ackba" or something and burning cars.

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi All,

I'm hesitant to set the cat amongst the pigeons again, ....- SEAGOON

I'm sorry I don't have the answer to your question but I do love that phrase.

Word.

Mark

[Nashwan]

It depends why they are in Britain in the first place.

If they were born British, they cannot be deported no matter what they do. As I understand it, very few of them are British born, though.

If they have obtained British citizenship, it can be revoked, as long as they can resume their old citizenship (it can't be revoked if they would become stateless)

If they don't have British citizenship, they can be deported.

However, no one can be deported to their home country if that would place them at serious risk. That's a loophole exploited by many of these extremists because their own governments would likely kill or torture them. It's also exploited by common criminals, for example there was a Somali man who entered Britain on a forged Kenyan passport in the early 90s. He raped a 13 year old girl and was sent to prison. When his sentence ran out in 2003, the government began deportation procedures. Because Somalia was so dangerous, a court ruled they couldn't legally deport him, and he was awarded £50,000 compensation for the time he spent in prison awaiting deportation.

Crazy, isn't it?

The questioner asked why the Brown government had not deported these Imams if they had the ability to do so, I responded that I was unsure they had the power to deport them if they were simply preaching Islamic teaching even if it involved cursing the "Kuffar" and their rulers, and calling for the end of democracy and the "struggle" that would establish the caliphate.

Depends exactly what they are calling for. There's no law in the UK against cursing rulers, thankfully (I used to curse Blair almost every day). Calling for an end to democracy or the setting up of an Islamic state isn't illegal either.

Calling for violence is, and they can certainly be deported for that, subject to citizenship/ safety of their home countries.

As an example:

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1312&id=819212007

[VOR]

Originally posted by Seagoon
I'm hesitant to set the cat amongst the pigeons again

*Chuckle*

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Nashwan
If they were born British, they cannot be deported no matter what they do. As I understand it, very few of them are British born, though.

Give them 5-10 years.  They breed like rabbits.  I've perceive it to be happening across a lot of europe.

[LYNX]

In answer to your question British law is much the same as your own.  Freedom of speech and Innocent until proven guilty.

Nashwan has it pretty well spot on with one tiny exception.  None Brits can be deported to a host nation not necasserily the deportees original country.  Only if that host nation is willing to accept them.  This doesn't happen much either.  Usually high profile types.

For this lot to be banned evidence would have to go to the CPS (criminal prosecution service) to see if a case could in theory be won in Her Majesties Courts.  Calling for or prompting people to kill (did you notice that speaker correct the reporter?), funding of illegal actives or banned organisations, collecting, gathering, manufacturing "of" are such evidence.  

Anyone can wish anyone dead but to say I'll kill him or you need to kill him is totally different.  As defined by your own laws you can't threaten to kill someone.

Their playing the system.  The system to which most westerns, for want of a better expression, adhere to.  Nothing was illegal here and it's their freedom of speech.  We can assume what they say behind close doors.  Assume what they would like to do but you need enough evidence.

Yer their a bunch of S**t heads and it would be great to kick their sorry little arses outta here but under our laws they have a right to be just that.  A bunch of "s**t head".




The only bit that surprised me there were remarks about the Queen.  Sailing pretty close to some very old laws we have here.

[Seagoon]

Hi Nashwan, Lynx,

Thanks for the info, that's pretty much what I thought but I remembered that Al-Bakri was banned from returning to the UK in 2005 and I believe has been turned away several times since. That could be different from a deportation since he left under his own power and was denied re-entry. I remember also reading of another Saudi trained Imam with ties to Muhajiroun who was also deported but couldn't remember the circumstances.

- SEAGOON

PS: Oh and Lynx, don't despair, the good guys win in the end.

Originally posted by Nashwan
It depends why they are in Britain in the first place.

If they were born British, they cannot be deported no matter what they do. As I understand it, very few of them are British born, though.

If they have obtained British citizenship, it can be revoked, as long as they can resume their old citizenship (it can't be revoked if they would become stateless)

If they don't have British citizenship, they can be deported.

However, no one can be deported to their home country if that would place them at serious risk. That's a loophole exploited by many of these extremists because their own governments would likely kill or torture them. It's also exploited by common criminals, for example there was a Somali man who entered Britain on a forged Kenyan passport in the early 90s. He raped a 13 year old girl and was sent to prison. When his sentence ran out in 2003, the government began deportation procedures. Because Somalia was so dangerous, a court ruled they couldn't legally deport him, and he was awarded £50,000 compensation for the time he spent in prison awaiting deportation.

Crazy, isn't it?



Depends exactly what they are calling for. There's no law in the UK against cursing rulers, thankfully (I used to curse Blair almost every day). Calling for an end to democracy or the setting up of an Islamic state isn't illegal either.

Calling for violence is, and they can certainly be deported for that, subject to citizenship/ safety of their home countries.

As an example:

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1312&id=819212007