Russkies own North Pole

[Vad]

Originally posted by WMLute
I googled 3778234 as you suggested.  Thanks for that.  If anything, if I am reading the translations correctly, it backs up my point of view.  Thank you.


I was watching a T.V. show where they walked up to a random person in the street here in the U.S. and asked them what day did the 911 World Trade Center attack happen on.  Amazingly to me, MANY of them could not come up with Sept. eleventh. (9/11)

There were in the U.S. when it happened.  They are "from" here.  They should know more than somebody not from the U.S. by your line of thinking.

My point is this.  Just because you live there, doesn't mean you are not an idiot, or have a clue what you are talking about.  The average person is a moron.    

Now give me something SCHOLARLY.  Not a bunch of idiots on forums debating.  Give me published data.  Give me books written.  Cite sources.  Show me PROOF, not some weak links to BBS's full of average idiots spouting out opinions on subjects they really have no idea about.

I asked you to explain why you seem to be better qualified than the people I cited.  

Your reply was


Many of my sources are not only Russian, but are experts in this field, which obviously you are not.  

By the way, the 60 million figure was over a period of time.  Do I HAVE to explain how to read a simple graph to you?

The reply "because I lived there and I would have noticed" is not only a horribly reply, but as I showed with the 911 anecdote, does not make me believe you have the slightest clue what you are talking about.  "Because I said so" is not a response that will win a round during a debate.

Actually, the more I read from you and Boroda, the more obvious it is to me just how little you know.

I wanted a scholarly debate.  Instead it is like I am debating a child.  If I wanted to debate an idiot, I can go to any bar around here, bring up politics, and get my fill of people who don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about.

IF you are able (I would say willing but nothing you have posted shows me you have the slightest ability to hold up your end of the argument so I will go with "able") to debate this topic in a scholarly mannor, I would be happy to continue.

In order to do so you must cite sources.  Give me quotes.  Names.  Backgrounds.  Credentials.  Dates.  Publishers.  Journals.

Back up your point of view with empirical data.

So far you have done nothing of the sort.

Sorry, but sometimes I don't understand you guys....
These are the quotes, names, backgrounds, credentials, dates, publishers, journals.

http://www.rusarchives.ru/federal/rgae/nsa1.shtml
http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2003/0103/analit01.php
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/7231/repress.htm
http://www.teacher.syktsu.ru/02/liter/047.htm

It's not my problem that you don't understand Russain. It's not my problem that Central Archive  of Russia doesn't translate all that documents in English. We, me and Boroda,  tried to do that for you to help you with Russian but instead of just say "thank you" you blame us... ok, it's irrelevant.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Vad
Don't get why are you asking but ok.
I'm 42.

You probably didn't notice how many died during Stalin's rule because you weren't born yet. I'm 44 and I wouldn't have noticed how many Americans died during WWII simply because my parents had just been born in 1942. They hadn't even met each other yet when Stalin bought the farm.

[McFarland]

Vad, if you are 42, you were not even born during WWII, when many of Stalin's massacres occurred. And how do we know that the documents aboot how many people he killed weren't "corrected" in the 50+ years till they were declassified? That's plenty of time to "correct" documents, now don't you think? And he himself said that Ivan the Terrible killed many Bolsheviks, and none of them were remembered at that time, so he could do the same, and in the next hundred years, who would care? When the bodies were found, people would no longer care aboot them. And yes, he is quoted saying this. Read the book Warlords, it has many actual letters and quotes from the great leaders during WWII, and their thoughts and ways of thinking. Stalin was cold blooded as they come. Only Hitler even rivals him in that aspect.

[Vad]

Originally posted by Elfie
You probably didn't notice how many died during Stalin's rule because you weren't born yet. I'm 44 and I wouldn't have noticed how many Americans died during WWII simply because my parents had just been born in 1942. They hadn't even met each other yet when Stalin bought the farm.

I know that you woudn't have noticed. America lost just few hundreds of thousands..

Could you imagine what does it mean - 27 millions lost? No, you can't.
It means that when I was 10 years old all of my family gathered together to celebrate New Year (Christmas, as you call it). And in that table I saw 10 women and 5 men. 2 of them were invalid, no legs or hands.

My father has never talked about that war, he tried to forget that nightmare. He was born in 1942 too. From the village where he lived 200 men went to the war. 2 returns. 2 (two). Can you imagine how it looks like? 150 homes, small village in the middle of nowhere. At least 150 women who will never see any men but that two. And that teenagers my father happened to be...

Oh, you will never understand that....

[Elfie]

Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Elfie
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?

Hard to understand such things for me.

The War is a dividing line for our country. "before the War" and "after the War". My family: Grand-Father, born in 1889, served in cavalry during WWI, in low ranks, then fought in Red Army, got "purged" in 1932 as a member of a "Czar's officers coup", then released in 1934, all charges dropped. Didn't serve in GPW. One Great-Grand Father was executed for "sabotage" on his railway line in 1939 ... One of his sons died of typhus in 1933 during the Ukrainian "famine" - he just graduated from university... Yougest son was killed in April 1945 at Koenigsberg, he was only 17 years old... One Grand-Uncle killed in 1941 (he was an officer), another, a colonel, got captured by nazis in 1942 near Kharkov, spent almost 2 years in concentration camp, then managed to escape, worked at the farm until Americans came in 1945 (he was in Western Germany). Another Grand-Father served in Guards Mortar Corps since 1941, then served in artillery college teaching students to operate BM-13 launchers. Another Grand-Uncle was a Cossack officer during WWI, volunteered in 1941 as a private, went all the way to Germany 1945. Shoud I continue this list? I was born in 1972, and never saw most of this people, but they are my Family. And I was born in Leningrad, were many neighbours and friends remember the Siege, believe me, such things are hard to forget.

You see, my famlily members were "repressed", while being loyal to the regime... I don't say there were no "purges", it was a horrible time, but think about one fact: in 1940 there were less people in prisons and labour camps in the whole USSR then in new "democratic" Russia (halp the population of the Union) in 1999.

An interesting observation: in any thread discussing Russia on the third page someone switches to "bloody Stalin" (tm). Seems like a total lack of arguments from "blue side"

[Russian]

Originally posted by Elfie
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?

Is someone stopping you asking older than you those questions; Grandparents or neighbors? I've talked to many people that lived through Stalin/WW2 times and guess what? History that you learned  in colleges/high schools/ universities present a great comedy act and nothing more. I still remember laughing my bellybutton off while professor talked about 'russian history'...

[Vad]

Originally posted by Elfie
Let's say America actually did lose millions. How would I be able to notice they were gone when I wasn't even alive when they died? To me, things would just look as they always had...no?

It's very difficult not to notice loss of 27 millions, even 20 years after the war.

Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc.

And all your friends around ask their parents the same questions. Because there is no one in the whole country who didn't lose somebody on that war.

[McFarland]

It's sad when you have lived under that rule so long you can't even think that Stalin was evil. That many of the people were killed by him, or his secret service, and you think he did right to kill them.

Originally posted by Boroda
One Great-Grand Father was executed for "sabotage" on his railway line in 1939

And you don't even think that was wrong and evil of them? If someone killed any member of me family, I don't care if it was the govment, I would call to arms me entire family, and with them or without them, I would hunt down the people who did it and make sure they paid. Even if I died in the process, I would take several of them with me. Stalin was evil to kill that many people.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Vad
Don't get why are you asking but ok.
I'm 42.

Ohhh I don't know.... born in 1965 right?...

Originally posted by Vad
I'm more expert than any of that "experts" you talked to. I was living in that country. If we would lose 60 millions plus 27 millions in WW2 having only 164 millions total I would notice that.
 

Can you see my point?

[Elfie]

Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc

That wouldn't have been me.....I was adopted and have never met my biological family.

*edit* Well....I am told that I was taken from my biological parents when I was 3 and that I did visit them a few times after that, but I have no memories of it.

[Elfie]

Boroda I can understand that. Yet it would still be difficult to see the *big picture* to total numbers that died don't you think? Heck, it's difficult to imagine 1 million people, let alone up to 60 million dieing. (I'm not saying 60 million died during Stalin's rule because we may never now the exact count. Even those who are *experts* tend to disagree on the exact count)

Even when I look at this stadium:  http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Big10/Michigan/aerial.jpg&imgrefurl=http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Big10/Michigan/index.htm&h=372&w=500&sz=92&tbnid=ynKOTKFxtuNQrM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmichigan%2Bstadium%26um%3D1&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3 and think....multiply by 10 for 1 million, its STILL hard to picture that many people.

The only relative I have that served during WWII died before I was born. That was my adoptive mothers father, my grandfather.

[ghi]

Those antibalistic missile,  are not proved yet to work , lot of money wasted useles on the program and mostly failure tests, and low % of interception,
If the fanatic islamists get a nuke , they won't deliver it with sophisticated balistic missile
 Bush idea to instal those missile in East Europe is stiring up the russians ,wich find themself anyway georgafic and  economic  isolated since EU expanded to east ,
 But , maybe that's what Bush and other iluminati want: push the EU in a war, and eliminate the competition,

[Boroda]

Originally posted by McFarland
It's sad when you have lived under that rule so long you can't even think that Stalin was evil. That many of the people were killed by him, or his secret service, and you think he did right to kill them.

And you don't even think that was wrong and evil of them? If someone killed any member of me family, I don't care if it was the govment, I would call to arms me entire family, and with them or without them, I would hunt down the people who did it and make sure they paid. Even if I died in the process, I would take several of them with me. Stalin was evil to kill that many people.

I am a Stalinist, but my meaning of this term is absolutely different from yours.

Great-Grand Father was sentenced to "10 years wihout the right to correspondence" in 1939... There was a train crash on his railway line, not his fault, but he was in charge... It was a horrible time, and I don;t want such things to repeat. USSR was desperately preparing for an upcoming war, Non-Aggession Treaty didn't fool anyone. Stalin made a miracle, with an agricultural country destroyed by WWI and Civil War, where only about 10% of the population was literate, turning it into a world-class industrial power capable of fighting a war with a most advanced army in the world, backed up by half of the Western World and winning it. And the stakes were as high as a survival of the whole nation, so please don't repeat that bull**** about Stalin fighting for his own power.

Sorry too busy to continue

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Vad
It's very difficult not to notice loss of 27 millions, even 20 years after the war.

Being kid you used to ask questions. "Mammy, where is my grandfather?" "Who are those men on pictures, why they don't live with us?" "Why granny Ira, granny Nina, granny Olga are living alone, where are their husbands?" etc.

And all your friends around ask their parents the same questions. Because there is no one in the whole country who didn't lose somebody on that war.

You're contradicting yourself now.