Author Topic: Why does this kind of thing keep happening?  (Read 2119 times)

Offline Neubob

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Why does this kind of thing keep happening?
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2007, 05:08:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by McFarland
I beleive the answer to why things are getting worse is that we are near the end of days.





The paradox is that as the world continues to brim over with a population of increasingly fanatical, increasingly conspiquous, decreasingly rational religious whack-jobs, this 'end of Days' prophecy tends more and more to fulfill itself.

Offline Seagoon

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Why does this kind of thing keep happening?
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2007, 05:13:37 PM »
Hi Viking,

Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Yes! MORE religious fanatics is what we need!


Setting aside the fact that you are proving my point above about the Emperor's new clothes and defending the need for more of the same poison, do you really think that say the American Christians from the 18th and 19th centuries who believed that society should be founded on the basis of biblical ethics were "religious fanatics?" Your statement not only makes all religions equally unbalanced, it denies that the possibility that one of them might actually be true. I'm not surprised by the approach, but if I consistently adopted it in regards to politics, philosophy, or economics on the board, I'd be laughed to scorn (more than the usual amount I mean).

But I want to be fair, please go ahead and tell me in detail how our prevailing amoral, atheistic, and irreligious model for society is superior to one based on  Christian ethics including how it will someday start reducing the kind of actions Diablo wrote about rather than fostering them and how long we need to wait for that great reversal to occur.

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Offline Kaw1000

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Why does this kind of thing keep happening?
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2007, 05:30:30 PM »
Our society is too soft today........we need to get back to the days of old......the days when you pay with you life for doing these types of things...not sit in jail for life......eye for an eye........these gangs on our streets they need to be eliminated!!!.......we pitty patty around and let them get away with murder and do nothing.........The crooks and criminals in this country know they will just get a slap on the hand for alot of these crimes....I say they lose that hand not get it slaped...that would make other criminals think twice before they do the "Dirty Deed"
     To bad it will never happen....too many bleeding heart liberals in this country. My thoughts and prayers are with you Diablo
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2007, 08:43:37 AM »
children..  especialy male children..  growing up without a father is the root cause.

Anything society does to make it so less kids grow up without fathers is a good thing and slows this kind of feral behavior..

Anything society does to hinder or encourage children raised without fathers is a bad thing and will further such feral behavior.

It is not complex.

lazs

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2007, 09:16:25 AM »
Laz,

You didn't go far enough there. It's not the presence of a father it's the presence of a GOOD father figure. By supplying a good role model you'll get results. Merely having a male adult in the house does not mean they will be a good parent.
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Offline 0thehero

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Why does this kind of thing keep happening?
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2007, 09:48:31 AM »
Quote
But I want to be fair, please go ahead and tell me in detail how our prevailing amoral, atheistic, and irreligious model for society is superior to one based on Christian ethics including how it will someday start reducing the kind of actions Diablo wrote about rather than fostering them and how long we need to wait for that great reversal to occur.


And yet "Christian ethics" (whatever the hell that means) have been largely en vogue now more than ever in this country, with more press, more money, more organization and more political clout than ever before.  How can anyone say the US isn't arguably more Christian now than ever before?  You can't swing a dead cat anywhere in this country without being beaten over the head with Christian evangelization to some extent or another.

If a theocracy is the solution to statistically rare occurances like the aforementioned tragedy, I respectfully submit that the cure is worse than the disease.

Offline Speed55

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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2007, 10:00:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 0thehero
If a theocracy is the solution to statistically rare occurances like the aforementioned tragedy, I respectfully submit that the cure is worse than the disease.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

It's not that rare, that's the problem.  
There's one graph in particular on that page that stands out.  Right side about 1/3 way down.  

Crazy world in which we live.


Sorry for what your aunt has to deal with Diablo .
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2007, 11:57:01 AM »
Hi Laz,

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
children..  especialy male children..  growing up without a father is the root cause.

Anything society does to make it so less kids grow up without fathers is a good thing and slows this kind of feral behavior..

Anything society does to hinder or encourage children raised without fathers is a bad thing and will further such feral behavior.

It is not complex.

lazs


A number of studies have shown that what you are saying is indeed the case, and that having no father in the home (good, bad, or indifferent) is the single most significant factor in criminal behavior (more so than race or economic status). For instance in 2002 the Journal of Criminal Justice completed a study that reported:

"Even after controlling for gender, minority status, and mother’s education] “[A]dolescents living in a single-parent family were at significantly higher risk for status, property and person [violent] delinquency than adolescents who lived with two parents”

 Another study done by the journal Criminology reported: "[A]n increase of 13% in female-headed households would produce a doubling of the offense rate, the strongest relationship in the model.”

While another report reported: "Out-of-wedlock births had a strong relationship to violent crime rates. Nationally, between 1973 and 1995, nearly 90% of the change in violent crime rates can be accounted for by the change in percentages of out-of-wedlock births. Comparing across states between 1987 and 1993, “Levels of out-of-wedlock births were consistently and strongly related to violent crime. Rates of male unemployment were not consistently related to rates of violent crime.” [Mackey, Wade C., & Coney, Nancy S.. Journal of Men’s Studies, 8: 349-37]

If you compare that to the percentage of prison inmates raised by single mothers (70%), the stats in the reports are clearly born out.

Ok, the connection exists, but it still begs the question why did we see such a huge jump in out of wedlock births between the 1960s and the 1990s, as well as a huge rise in the number of abortions since 1973 (for instance 11.5 million African-American pregnancies have ended in abortion since 1973)? The answer is the massive change in the ethical standards of our culture. At one time premarital sex, cohabitation without marriage, abortion and having children out of wedlock were all considered wrong. By and large they no longer are, and as a society we have even decided to pay the cost of raising these fatherless children by reallocating our tax dollars which in turn further encourages the behavior (you get what you pay for).

So while we know that single mothers are producing the next generation of feral males who will prey on society, we are not allowed to state that premarital sex or having children out of wedlock is bad or sinful. So as said before, the parade goes on with no end in sight.

Good thing we are so much smarter than our ancestors or we might start to wonder if we really have created a better society.

- SEAGOON
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Offline Seagoon

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Why does this kind of thing keep happening?
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2007, 02:28:26 PM »
Hi 0TH,
This is probably more of a reply than you were looking for, and for that I apologize, but your post does actually illustrate some popular misconceptions that it might be valuable to deal with in detail. I’m way behind schedule today, so I hope you won’t mind if I use a few more quotes than I normally would.

Originally posted by 0thehero
Quote
And yet "Christian ethics" (whatever the hell that means) have been largely en vogue now more than ever in this country


Actually, that isn’t really the case at all. Let me try to explain why. First let’s start by defining what is meant by Christian ethics, here I’m going to be smashing a lot of distinctions flat and not discussing the various subdivisions in ethics (descriptive, normative, etc.) For the sake of argument I’ll use J. Douma’s definition from his Responsible Conduct: Principles of Christian Ethics:

“Christian ethics is reflection upon moral conduct in light of the perspective offered us in Holy Scripture”.

Because the source of these ethics is the teaching of scripture (and largely the moral law – Ten Commandments and the further light shed on these commandments in the New Testament), these ethics are largely fixed and unchanging, and while interpretation may be necessary to fit them to particular circumstances, murder and theft will always be wrong and never right because they are contrary to God’s commandments. Thus Christian ethics are distinguished from Utilitarian ethics in that the ends never justify the means and also profoundly different from what are commonly called morals:
Quote
Historically there has been a profound difference between the concepts of morals and ethics. The word morals, coming from the Latin mores, means “manners” or “customs” and describes the behavioral patterns of people. The morality of a given group is simply what they do. If most of the people in the group are engaged in bank robbing, then that society has a morality of bank robbing.

The word ethics, on the other hand, comes from the Greek ethos meaning “foundation” or “root” and has to do with the philosophical basis for morality. It encompasses the reasons why certain behavioral patterns are better than others.

Ethics is concerned with what ought to be done, while morality is concerned with what is in fact going on. To put it another way, ethics is “ought-ness” and morals is “is-ness.”

The Christian perspective holds that people are required to do what they ought to do, and what they ought to do is determined by God. If, however, we deny the possibility and foundation of ethics and are left only with morals, then it is every person for himself or herself. Fyodor Dostoyevsky said it this way: “If there is no God, everything is permitted.” (RC Sproul, Before the Face of God)


Now amongst Americans only around 35% of Americans believe in absolute standards of morality according to polling done by the Barna group, and even fewer have what could be called a biblical world and life view. As an Evangelical pastor, I can tell you that the norm in the church these days is for Christians to essentially mimic the views of the pop-culture with only a thin Christian veneer placed over them. Consistent Christian theology and ethics has become very rare and the faith and practice of evangelicals is in many senses at its lowest ebb since the reformation. In most ways, Christians follow the culture in its desire for “stronger morals” but are often practically antinomian in their own practice.

Additionally while it may be your perception that there is more Christianity in the USA than ever before, that perception actually comes from two misleading components. Firstly, evangelical Christians fought and lost the “culture war” between fundamentalism and modernism in both the public square and the mainline denominations in the early 20th century. Following those defeats they largely retreated from the political sphere opting for a policy of separation. However in the 1980s Evangelical Christians, alarmed at what they perceived to be the social decay of the country began to re-enter US politics starting up organizations like the Christian Coalition. Naturally this re-entry was not pleasing to the left-wing (despite the fact that the mainline churches had been supporting liberal politics for decades) and generated considerable animosity, even amongst fiscal conservatives and a raging battle has ensued. The perception that they weren’t there before and suddenly “appeared” is false and misleading; they existed, but hadn’t had much of political voice since the 1920s which was a situation that the political left no doubt wishes had continued. Secondly, the divide between secular Americans and evangelical Christians has never been wider than at present, many Americans particularly in the cities and the suburban or urban North East have little or no contact with evangelicals, they are people you see on TV but not in your actual circle of friends and acquaintances. I, for instance, managed to grow up (first in the UK and then in NJ) and complete high school without ever meeting a genuine evangelical or hearing the gospel. Evangelicals also tend to form their own ghettos and sub-cultures which only increases the divide. Therefore when secular humanists see evangelicals involved in politics, there is a perception that a non-mainstream alien invasion is occurring because you are normal, and these people clearly aren’t. The idea that what they believe was actually once the norm in America never occurs to many people - we are simply unaware of how much the West has changed in the last 100 years.  

The drift in modern evangelicalism however, is increasingly towards compromise across the board. Americans as a rule want to fit in, and Evangelical Americans want to be liked and accepted by the world as well. In order to do so however, massive compromises are necessary, and if you are familiar with groups like Barna or magazines like Christianity Today, or if you have visited one of the Mega-Churches that could easily be mistaken for a shopping mall you’ll find those compromises are proceeding at warp speed. Rather than being a distinctly different sphere from the culture, the church is actually becoming more and more worldly every day. Far from being able to “win the culture war” many of us in the church spend much of our time trying to stop the church from sliding into the culture.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2007, 02:36:27 PM »
thanks seagoon but anyone with the brains god gave gophers knows that boys need dads or a dad figure or they will go feral.

boys/men are less civiliized than women and also will not listen to a woman (except democrats or ones with a lot of estrogen).

They need a man to tell em how to act.. they need a man who was raised by a man tho... not a man/boy who has not had a dad in the family for generations.

it is simple stuff really.

lazs

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2007, 02:56:37 PM »
Hi Laz2,

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thanks seagoon but anyone with the brains god gave gophers knows that boys need dads or a dad figure or they will go feral.

boys/men are less civiliized than women and also will not listen to a woman (except democrats or ones with a lot of estrogen).

They need a man to tell em how to act.. they need a man who was raised by a man tho... not a man/boy who has not had a dad in the family for generations.

it is simple stuff really.

lazs


Apparently not considering that 1/3rd of all children born in the United States will grow up without fathers, and that this trend is being actively encouraged by the chattering classes and the media. Apparently its wonderful when Timmy either has no daddy or two mommies. There are even organizations designed to encourage single motherhood -

For instance aside from groups like NOW you have:
http://www.choosingsinglemotherhood.com/ *

I don't think these people are stupid and certainly not uneducated. I think the problem has more to do with a vacuum of ethics, humility, and wisdom.

Anyway Laz, if there are no absolutes and every man and woman is the arbiter of their own morality, how do you plan on getting single males to stop impregnating single women and getting single women to stop giving birth to the next generation of criminals?

- SEAGOON

* Edit: My favorite quote from the entire site "Ms. Morrissette lived in New York City for 18 years. She returned to her home state of Minnesota when her daughter was 3. She was five months pregnant with her son when she met the man who would become her husband. In the best interest of their kids, they continue to live in separate houses as single parents." :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 02:59:26 PM by Seagoon »
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2007, 03:09:38 PM »
The root cause of crime isn't the lack of father figures, but more basic then that.  The culture among African Americans is astounding in their acceptance of crime, and their willingness to commit it.  As well as the 'Baby's Daddy' theme you see time and time again on Maury.

Just take a look at the glorification of Rap artists, and what they 'Sing' about.



Then take a look at how some of the black's attempts to raise self awareness to their own problems have raised such animosity.  Bill Cosby trying to address it has been booed many times.  

Until you change or fix this culture by any means, the problem will not go away.




And just for reference, I had a great uncle get killed by a black man.  He was the owner operator of a McDonalds when it got held up.  My great uncle tried to calm everyone down, and make sure the robber was going to get his money and that he should leave everyone alone.  The robber blew his head off with a shotgun.  He then walked because the arresting officer didn't read him his miranda rights correctly.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2007, 03:29:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Viking,

 

Setting aside the fact that you are proving my point above about the Emperor's new clothes and defending the need for blah of the same blah, do you blah thiblah nk thblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

But I want to be fair, please go ahead and tell me in detail how our prevailing amoral, atheistic, and irreligious model for society is superior to one based on  Christian ethics including how it will someday start reducing the kind of actions Diablo wrote about rather than fostering them and how long we need to wait for that great reversal to occur.

- SEAGOON


Hi Seagoon.

First of all I'd like to note that my previous post was not directed at you, but at the post immediately above mine. Secondly, I'm not an atheist, but a humanist (human ethicist) and thus I believe in Christian values... or rather human values since I don't believe the Bible or the ten commandments are ordained by any deity, but simply authored by men of power. However, the promise of heaven for good and hell for evil are powerful motivators that a non-religious society lacks, and thus we must replace them with something. Harsher punishments for violations of our laws of conduct is one way. We also need to start beating our kids again.

Although Robert Heinlein presented extreme examples in his novels he was right about many things including this one: "Juvenile delinquent" is an oxymoron. A child does not know the difference between right and wrong and must be taught such things. So to refer to a child as “delinquent” puts too much accountability on a creature who has none to begin with. When a juvenile commits a crime it is not he who has failed society, but the society has failed him. We need to bring our kids up right.

"Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy." - Robert Heinlein

Offline McFarland

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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2007, 03:31:29 PM »
Yeah, if that McDonalds type thing happened around here, he would have been shot, if not by the police, or by a person in the McDonalds, by someone else on sight. It's called 'vigilantism", and it works great. Things like this keep violent crimes down, because people know that if they do something wrong, they will die. So they don't do them. It saves many lives.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2007, 03:54:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Originally posted by Seagoon: Setting aside the fact that you are proving my point above about the Emperor's new clothes and defending the need for blah of the same blah, do you blah thiblah nk thblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.


Yup, that sounds like him.

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