Arado Blitz Frame 2 Results

[Virage]

Originally posted by WxMan
the majority of damage done to the Axis bases and City was due to fighters and fighter bombers

Daddog said the majority of objs destroyed was by the 56th.  The bombers where used to take out Air fields  which of course has less objects than a city.

Had bomber formations been enabled for the first frame, I would have reduced the number of bomber pilots and added them as escorts

That is what happened frame 2.  Not only can you assign more pilots to fighters, but you can give more squads Escort/Sweep roles and not Attack roles.

Those arguing that Formations aren't more effective are not looking at the results of the last 2 frames.  In frame 1 the AFs were hardly damaged with no buffs getting home (or so it sounded like from those flying them).  In frame 2, the buffs took out the fields and most made it home. With less pilots.  The 5 p51's that cleaned up A46 took out 1 maybe 2 hangers, the initial buff raid flattened the place.  Obviously these 51s dropped ord on takeoff during the first attack , helped sweep for the buffs, then rearmed and put the finishing touches on A46.

The rule changes were to help the 'fun factor', not score balance imo.  Less obj = more action.  I think we can say we all saw more action.  Notice no complaints about being bored.  The formations gave more fun to the bombers pilots, notice no 'I got shot down...its unfair' posts.

[WxMan]

Originally posted by Virage
quote:
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Originally posted by WxMan
Had bomber formations been enabled for the first frame, I would have reduced the number of bomber pilots and added them as escorts
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That is what happened frame 2.  Not only can you assign more pilots to fighters, but you can give more squads Escort/Sweep roles and not Attack roles.

Those arguing that Formations aren't more effective are not looking at the results of the last 2 frames.  In frame 1 the AFs were hardly damaged with no buffs getting home (or so it sounded like from those flying them).  In frame 2, the buffs took out the fields and most made it home. With less pilots.  The 5 p51's that cleaned up A46 took out 1 maybe 2 hangers, the initial buff raid flattened the place.  Obviously these 51s dropped ord on takeoff during the first attack , helped sweep for the buffs, then rearmed and put the finishing touches on A46.

The rule changes were to help the 'fun factor', not score balance imo.  Less obj = more action.  I think we can say we all saw more action.  Notice no complaints about being bored.  The formations gave more fun to the bombers pilots, notice no 'I got shot down...its unfair' posts.

Vater if your going to quote me do not selectively edit.

Originally posted by WxMan

Had bomber formations been enabled for the first frame, I would have reduced the number of bomber pilots and added them as escorts. I'm not saying the outcome would have been significantly different, but more than one bomber would have made it to target.

I would have proabably taken half of the AK's and put them in fighters for the A53 and A49 raid. The Axis would have retained their fighter superiority at those bases, but some bombers may have made it in.  

Yes I agree it was for the fun factor. There's nothing worse than spending 40 minutes clawing for altitude and getting a conjugal visit without flowers before even reaching the target. Execution is another matter...no where did I say we would hit the target in the first frame and survive.

quote:
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Originally posted by WxMan
the majority of damage done to the Axis bases and City was due to fighters and fighter bombers
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Daddog said the majority of objs destroyed was by the 56th. The bombers where used to take out Air fields which of course has less objects than a city.

Yes the 56th hit the City with a follow up strike by the AK's near the end of the frame to account for the majority of the objects destroyed. However, if you look at the logs an equal number of the hangers and strats at A46 were taken out by P-51's after the B-17's.  Granted the majority of damage at A13 was caused by B-24's.

IMO, the huge difference in the two frames is strictly planning and execution. The Axis had it for the first frame, the Allies had it for the second.

[daddog]

Nomde you did a great job for your first FSO (with the exception of the objectives going out late twice). These kinds of threads are a great way to debrief and consider what went right and wrong. The hard part is deciding that for yourself. You have many experienced FSO guys and C.O.'s putting in their two cents which is of great value. Hard to tell who is right. More than often it is somewhere in the middle.

to all the Allies. You guys did a great job. My record is still intact. It is about 0 and 12 by now.

[Virage]

Originally posted by WxMan

IMO, the huge difference in the two frames is strictly planning and execution. The Axis had it for the first frame, the Allies had it for the second.

Sorry to selectively edit again ,   But I agree wholeheartedly.

I was discussing the effect of formations, not trying to make excuses for the Allied win/Axis loss.


A quote from my intersquad post regarding the action at A46:

"The Allied force gained every advantage in this frame. Altitude, Numbers, and Surprise by coming from the North. A very good plan with perfect results as they achieved air supremacy, destroyed A46 and all B17s returned safely."

S!

[Sweet2th]

Originally posted by Softail
Last frame I flew a Tempest and got an assist on a 234.    They came in NOE and they were at max speed.  

This frame I flew the Spit XIV and almost got within range of a 234.  Unfortunately....just as I was about to shoot at him over A75....he dropped his ord on the base...and blew HIMSELF out of the sky.  

Why do you consider it is getting "savagely hacked down by field ack" when you send in your 234s in at 200 feet WITHOUT cover?    They flew over both the towns and the bases with the ack just firing away.

The other question you need to find the answer to is  "How many of your 234 pilots killed themselves because they were bombing on the deck?"  I witnessed one....it was very disappointing....I didn't even get a chance to get a kill on it.

I just don't get why you would send in a high-speed bomber with no air cover, one fixed mount rear gun and tell them to go NOE!   But thats just me.   Our squadron of Spit XIVs killed 3 of your 234's add the one that blew himself up and that totals 4.    So those 4 were not lost to "savage ack".

Softail

Are you upset that you didn't get a kill?

The 234's had a target to hit and they hit it.End of story.

[Drano]

Originally posted by Softail
Last frame I flew a Tempest and got an assist on a 234.    They came in NOE and they were at max speed.  

This frame I flew the Spit XIV and almost got within range of a 234.  Unfortunately....just as I was about to shoot at him over A75....he dropped his ord on the base...and blew HIMSELF out of the sky.  

Why do you consider it is getting "savagely hacked down by field ack" when you send in your 234s in at 200 feet WITHOUT cover?    They flew over both the towns and the bases with the ack just firing away.

The other question you need to find the answer to is  "How many of your 234 pilots killed themselves because they were bombing on the deck?"  I witnessed one....it was very disappointing....I didn't even get a chance to get a kill on it.

I just don't get why you would send in a high-speed bomber with no air cover, one fixed mount rear gun and tell them to go NOE!   But thats just me.   Our squadron of Spit XIVs killed 3 of your 234's add the one that blew himself up and that totals 4.    So those 4 were not lost to "savage ack".

Softail

I was over the field mixing it up with the Temps so I had the 234s on my film as they attacked. I watched from their perspective switching from plane to plane and saw almost every one take damage from the ack on the way in. You guys might have gotten kills on some but they likely were on one engine fighting to maintain level flight and slowing down accordingly. The rest were killed by an unknown enemy which usually means an unmanned ack.  I'm just stating what I observed from my film of the fight over that area. I wasn't in the area last time, all I know is they made it thru.

I know they went in NOE last time too which is why I thought it odd they made it thru OK last week but not this week. BTW it was definitely NOT the plan to have gone in NOE either week. The idea was to have used superior speed in lieu of cover. Even a little bit of a dive would have been the ticket there maybe enabling a better drop and better chance of avoiding flak and possible escape from the area.

Drano

[Softail]

Originally posted by Sweet2th
Are you upset that you didn't get a kill?

The 234's had a target to hit and they hit it.End of story.

Upset?  no.  Just disappointed.

yep...and losing that 234 probably cost more points than the hanger that was missed.

But hey...If y'all wanna kamakazi expensive aircraft....have at it!

Softail

[Softail]

Originally posted by Drano

I know they went in NOE last time too which is why I thought it odd they made it thru OK last week but not this week. BTW it was definitely NOT the plan to have gone in NOE either week. The idea was to have used superior speed in lieu of cover. Even a little bit of a dive would have been the ticket there maybe enabling a better drop and better chance of avoiding flak and possible escape from the area.

Drano

Water's formation adapts to the ground when flowing.
So then an army's formation adapts to the enemy to achieve victory
-- Sun Tzu

[Sled]

Originally posted by Nomde
Gentlemen ~S~
    Thank you for the responses on the Arado FSO. I've been reading the posts with interest, and am looking at various setups to create an event everyone can enjoy.

    Please bear with me as I am new to creating these events, and there are alot of variables which can be adjusted. And as you can see, adjusting a minor setting can have dramatic effects

I can confidently say almost everyone is enjoying this event. If you are looking to create an event in which nobody complains about anything....... well, good luck with that.

[Sled]

Originally posted by Drano
........I thought your initial design was just fine and didn't need any "fine tuning" because of what some people thought. I think it should have been allowed to play out and see what might happen in the course of the entire event, THEN pick it apart.

I tend to agree, but I support Nomde's decision, and see the reason for making it.

[Sled]

Originally posted by Virage A quote from my intersquad post regarding the action at A46:

"The Allied force gained every advantage in this frame. Altitude, Numbers, and Surprise by coming from the North. A very good plan with perfect results as they achieved air supremacy, destroyed A46 and all B17s returned safely."

I lead the attack on 46. Actually, we started by coming in from the S / SSW direction. My squad (USMC / 71sqn) was the squad from that direction, we were a combo of mostly 51's with a flight of 14's. we intended to draw some of your defence to the south and therefore braking up your defenses, while the bomber force attacked straight in from the west, with there own close escort. It appears the plan worked.

BTW we lots 4 17's, and 9 (i think) fighters. The last 2 hangers were destroyed by my squad on a second run.

to all the defenders at 46. Good fun!

[Sweet2th]

Originally posted by Softail
Upset?  no.  Just disappointed.

yep...and losing that 234 probably cost more points than the hanger that was missed.

But hey...If y'all wanna kamakazi expensive aircraft....have at it!

Softail

Thats funny cuz 3 of us made 2 trips over there, and you couldn't hit us either time.

The VH and FH was destroyed as well as many other targets.

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by Sweet2th
Thats funny cuz 3 of us made 2 trips over there, and you couldn't hit us either time.

The VH and FH was destroyed as well as many other targets.

yet from the scores it seems most of you guys in 234s augered.....