Author Topic: 109 wing slats - how are they actuated?  (Read 3273 times)

Offline Karnak

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2007, 03:07:10 PM »
De Haviland initially planned them for the Mosquito, but then removed them after initial flight tests.  They felt the Mosquito was manuverable enough without them.
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Offline Charge

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2007, 02:29:32 PM »
"They felt the Mosquito was manuverable enough without them."

Sure. Do you know this or just think that that was the reason?

-C+
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Offline CAP1

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 04:26:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Grendel
The slats on the 109 and other German types were Handley-Page style slats.  Guess why? Because they were Handley Page patent and the British company was paid royalties for every single fighter and other plane Germany built that used the slats.

Of course, British planes used the slats too. And Russian. La-5 series for example. And Japanese. Surely in many US types too, for example F-86 Sabre had identical slats to 109. Who knows, maybe even Italians too. And slats are used in every modern airliner and fighter, though these days automatically.


i knew later models of most major nations had them....and i know they're on airliners........i was talking bout ww2 planes.......

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Offline CAP1

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 04:36:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
They don't actually always come out all at once with a loud sound but it is also possible that they move slightly out and in in slow level flight. I didn't know this until I saw it in in-flight video of Black 6. So their operation does not rely only on AoA but also of speed.

-C+



right........they rely on negative pressure on the wing.......when the wing is about to stall for ANY reason, there's negative air presure there.......because it's not producing lift for what ever reason......but since the wing has to exceed the aircraft's critical angle of attack to stall, yes......AOA still does play a part. when you slow down in level flight, what do you do to maintain your alt? you lift the nose. the slower you go, the higher you pitch the nose.....untill critical AOA is reached, then ya stall.  a stall can also happen at hi speed though as we all know, because AGAIN, when we try to turn inside that spit9, we're pulling the wing up to the critical AOA. remember....the plane doesn't know which way is up.....you can be banked 60 degrees, and pulling, and the plane can exceed its critical AOA to the oncomming wind. to the plane, the oncomming wind is obvioulsy from its front.assume 109 AOA in normal flight is 10 degrees(i don't know, just using a for instance) and its critical aoa is 17 degrees. now, you roll and pull into turn, smoothly and coordinated, you bring it around nicely never pulling the wing up past 13 degrees. but now ya get bounced...you pull hard, and the wing hits 17-18 degrees......now the air cannot flow properly over it, so it stops producing lift, creating the negative air pressure on the wing, and the slats drop, increasing the wing's camber, allowing it to produce some lift till you get back into normal flight.

if i'm wrong on this then someone please correct me?


now.....i'm gonna get flamed for this, aren't i?:noid :noid


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Offline CAP1

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 04:39:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
This has bothered me for a long time. There are several photos where the slats are shown open while the plane is on ground and people tend to believe that "open" is some kind of neutral position and only speed forces the shut.


1)it's the airflow over the wing that forces them in......so sitting on the ramp, shut down, they'll fall out to open position.

AFAIK, the slats have no springs or such, but they move freely. Therefore they could just as well be in shut position already before take-off. It is the airflow and AoA that forces them open. The photos with open slat on ground are, I believe, because of mechanicians just checking their movement or something after landing.

2)it's not airflow that forces them open.....it's LACK of airflow over the wing...as it stalls...

It seems a bit funny that in game the slat are always open when the plane is on ground....

3)see 1 and 2:D
Someone, please correct or verify this :)
:D

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Offline gripen

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 07:06:57 PM »
There is test data from Mtt on slats and above certain speed they stay in despite needed AoA is reached because  the pressure caused by speed prevents the opening. So if there is enough AoA and the speed decreases from high speed to below that certain speed, the slats open with loud bang. Otherwise the pilot don't usually really notice the movements of the slats; when the AoA increase they slowly come out and so on.

Regarding the rest; principal wise the slats are boundary layer devices so these do not increase lift directly but increase reachable AoA. In the Bf 109 the slats were to prevent tip stall and in practice there was only small increase in the Clmax because the rest of the wing stalls at given AoA regardless the slats.

And the slats are quite rare nowadays in the fighter aircraft; IIRC the F-14 and Eurofighter utilize them. The most other planes (F-22, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Gripen, Mig-29, Su-27...) utilize leading edge flaps which are principal wise true camber changing devices.

Offline Karnak

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 07:37:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
"They felt the Mosquito was manuverable enough without them."

Sure. Do you know this or just think that that was the reason?

-C+

That is De Haviland's claim.  Whether or not they are telling the truth I can't say, but I don't see why they would lie.


I certainly don't think it was as manuverable as a single engined fighter.  I think it just met their target manuverability without the slats.  It did a little better than expected is all.
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Offline BlauK

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2007, 09:18:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by CAP1
1)it's the airflow over the wing that forces them in......so sitting on the ramp, shut down, they'll fall out to open position.

john



Like I said, there are also pics of landed or taxi'ing planes with slats closed. Would they then just be rusty or lack lubricants or something??? :)

In the museum this slat was closed before it was pulled out for the photo.
Notice the angle it moves.. almost sideways when the plane sits tail down.


109G6 landing with flaps open, but slats stay closed.


Same plane parked with slats closed.


Three museum planes with slats closed.
Two of them lie on their bellies, but do they have moving slats?




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Offline BlauK

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2007, 09:19:58 AM »
Me262 taxi'ing after landing. Slats open, but it is no tail dragger like 109.
Are these original slats or does this newly built replica have leading edge "flaps"?


109G-2 taxi'ing with slat slightly open. Was it pulled open while the plane was still parked?


109 in a museum with other side's slat open and other side's closed.
(I think it is he same plane)




So... I am not yet convinced that the "neutral position" of the slat would be "open".
The airflow forces them shut and getting close to a stall with high AoA opens them. Yes. But otherwise I am still lacking the evidence to believe they would open themselves because of gravity while parked or taxi'ing. :rolleyes:


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Offline Tilt

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2007, 09:40:23 AM »
La7 slat is the same motion via a swing arm......

Here is white 77 at Kebly in its Default position.......... However the rear wheel is lifted on a concrete block. I suspect that when in its normal taxiing position the slat would fall fully closed.



here I am pulling it out



this gives some insight into the slat angle and extent of deployment



I have more detailed pictures but need FTP stuff to check their URL's which is at home.

As above basically at a certain AoA the slat is sucked out due to its aerofoil shape, the mechanical advantage obtained from its linkage and the differential pressures about it.

Slats had to be "trimmed" by checking the bearing pins and their "fit" into the wing profile.

I have one set La7 test reports where the pilot reports the slats to be out of trim one side staying open longer/shorter than the other as he conducted a climbing trial.
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Offline Charge

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 02:00:27 PM »
"I certainly don't think it was as manuverable as a single engined fighter. I think it just met their target manuverability without the slats. It did a little better than expected is all."

I read a book of the Hurricane pilots at Malta and the writer flew a mock dogfight against Mossie in his Hurricane. He told that the Hurri's turn radius had little use because the Mossie flew circles around him so fast he couldn't take a shot at it even if he wanted to... So in that light the slats really would have been quite useless.

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Offline Souless

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 02:25:32 PM »
Sigh... wishing for a properly coded mossie:)

Offline Guppy35

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 02:44:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Souless
Sigh... wishing for a properly coded mossie:)


There's still hope for ya Souless.  I was really worried you were going to be talking 109Ks.

Thank goodness the Mossie is keeping you from being completely assimilated into the leather underwear crowd :)
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Offline Souless

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 05:29:41 PM »
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Originally posted by Guppy35
There's still hope for ya Souless.  I was really worried you were going to be talking 109Ks.

Thank goodness the Mossie is keeping you from being completely assimilated into the leather underwear crowd :)


I prefer pleather Dan, the leather chaffs and is quite itchy:D

Offline CAP1

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109 wing slats - how are they actuated?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 07:33:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
Like I said, there are also pics of landed or taxi'ing planes with slats closed. Would they then just be rusty or lack lubricants or something??? :)

1)yes, you are right....if i recall, i did read about them sticking sometimes...

In the museum this slat was closed before it was pulled out for the photo.
Notice the angle it moves.. almost sideways when the plane sits tail down.


109G6 landing with flaps open, but slats stay closed.


Same plane parked with slats closed.


Three museum planes with slats closed.
Two of them lie on their bellies, but do they have moving slats?




>

john
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)