Author Topic: Kinda Shoppin' Around (Read 898 times)

Irwink! · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2007, 11:54:26 AM »

My least favorite part of a build is getting all the little front panel device connectors in the right place. I'll take a processor install any time over that.

Enduro · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2007, 12:39:11 PM »

I hear ya loud and clear, TC. I have an older PC that still runs the game; so, I'm not rushing things too much. That really sucks about your friends who were ripped off. That's why I'm really not rushing--if I need a shop, I want to find one I can really trust.

I have an old bud that works in IT. Gonna see if he's available to supervise the build when the afternoon comes.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2007, 02:13:26 PM »

if your unsure or have no build experience ... if your worried about it .. but want to learn.

go get a cheapy beater pc off craigslist or your local seconds store /pawn/ or off a friend. 486/pent 2/ or some thing like that ... if it works all the better .

now take your time and tear the whole thing apart . now put it back together and see if it works . viola you've got build experience now

0thehero · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2007, 02:20:38 PM »

^ I'd have to disagree; so much has changed since the 486 was current (that was more than ten years ago) and in the computer world, parts ain't parts like chicken.

There's no shame in saying, "Look, I don't think I have the technical aptitude/time/desire/patience for building my own PC," and then finding a reputable vendor and buying one that's complete and ready to run out of the box with support on the other end of the line. I've recommended them before, but GamePC is but one example of a vendor that all manner of game system options right out of the box.

You're not a pansy if you can't/don't want to build your own PC. I don't know how to rebuild my car's engine, but I can still drive it just fine.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2007, 03:05:17 PM »

disagree all you want ... you will never make a good teacher or instructor .

Just ask your self ..whats the best way to learn about mechanical type work ??

the answer you need here is " Hands on "

argue with me all you want ... I know Enduro and I have enough confindence in him that he could easily learn to build pc's , he just needs a little practice (hence my "Hands on ") Hell i'll even send him a pc to practice on if he wants .

humble · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2007, 04:26:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 0thehero
^ I'd have to disagree; so much has changed since the 486 was current (that was more than ten years ago) and in the computer world, parts ain't parts like chicken.

There's no shame in saying, "Look, I don't think I have the technical aptitude/time/desire/patience for building my own PC," and then finding a reputable vendor and buying one that's complete and ready to run out of the box with support on the other end of the line. I've recommended them before, but GamePC is but one example of a vendor that all manner of game system options right out of the box.

You're not a pansy if you can't/don't want to build your own PC. I don't know how to rebuild my car's engine, but I can still drive it just fine.

Actually parts are parts. No difference at all from 15 yrs ago. Basically identical layout...you have a socket, memory slots and card slots on the motherboard. You have a PS, a cpu fan and hard drives etc to connect. Anyone who built a box in 1992 could easily do it today.

The single biggest problem is incorrectly installing the fan, #2 is the CPU itself. If you can put the cpu in and install the cooling fan correctly your 90% of the way home IMO....take your time and you'll be fine.

715 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2007, 09:31:23 PM »

Guys, you have to admit that there is more to building a new PC than just mechanically assembling the parts. Choosing components and making sure they are compatible is not entirely trivial. It is possible to run into arcane incompatibilities between motherboards, BIOS, RAM, CPU, GPU, sound cards, drives, etc that can be difficult to debug. You shouldn't call someone an idiot if they don't want to risk these headaches when building their own PC.

Yes I built my own PC and yes I had problems (RAM not working with it's own SPD timings).

0thehero · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2007, 09:48:05 PM »

Quote

disagree all you want ... you will never make a good teacher or instructor

Whoa, dude. Not trying to fight, just illustrate that it's a bit more complex than pros or even amateur builders like to acknowledge. Lots of casual people can build machines, but not too many build them particularly well. I realize the battle cry is usually, "Fu[k Dell and HP and all the others; build your own!" And it's easy for us to do that--some of us can probably build systems literally blindfolded (I prefer to wear glasses). As for me not being a particularly talented instructor, we don't know each other so let's just look past that.

Quote

Actually parts are parts. No difference at all from 15 yrs ago. Basically identical layout...you have a socket, memory slots and card slots on the motherboard. You have a PS, a cpu fan and hard drives etc to connect. Anyone who built a box in 1992 could easily do it today.

But he didn't build a box in 1992 (which as any of us who did can recall, was not exactly the best time to be a system builder...). Even so, there were 12V+ 4-pin connectors 15 years ago? There were 6-pin PCI-E molex outputs 15 years ago? How about those newfangled ATX 2.2 motherboard connections, as opposed to what passed for current even three years ago? RAM voltages don't matter right? Can I use an ATX 2.01 PSU on a new motherboard--the connectors look pretty similar, right? Should he install 20-pin or 24-pin power (they both fit the same)? Or how to configure SATA versus PATA in a BIOS? And it doesn't matter how you insert memory sticks in a multi-slot, dual-channel system, which was not an issue 15 years ago? Why do I have to hit F6 upon installation of Windows?

The number of DIY mistakes tech folks run across encompass all these issues; I stopped counting how many times people called me because their hard drives were jumped incorrectly or their CPU power lead wasn't plugged in or new video cards failed right after boot...because they didn't know their card needed a 6-pin molex connector, or worse, that it needed two, and that their old PSU couldn't handle it.

Not only are parts not parts, but physical assembly is only half the battle. I'm not saying the guy can't do it. But you wouldn't hand someone a wrench and an exploded diagram of a ten-year old engine and say, "OK, dude, go to town on this new model. It's not that much different than the old one..."

Then again, BBSes like this one are useful for fixing such things on frequent occasion.

Enduro · « **Reply #23 on:** July 23, 2007, 01:15:25 AM »

Quite a conversation brewing here, huh?

Maybe I'll just try to fit an A+ course into my schedule.

Roo, thanks for the offer. You know, you reminded me that I have an old P2 tucked away in the closet. I'll use it as my Frankenstein.

Thanks guys!

Fulmar · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2007, 02:00:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 0thehero
Stuff....

You're not understanding what Roscoroo is is trying to bring across to you. Here's an example. Let's say you want to learn to be a mechanic. Do you:
A) Go buy that new Ford off the lot and tinker away
B) Acquire a 1978 Pinto and bring it back to life

There's a lot of difference between a car that is 30 years old and one built today. But they still have most of the same parts. The internal combustion engine is still in there, still have brakes etc etc, just probably no fuel injection or any of real electronics.

The point is. A Pentium 2 he has sitting in his closet still has a CPU, Hard drive, RAM etc etc. They all do the same thing a new computer does, just a lot slower. When I was growing up, my friends and I wouldn't spend a dime and would get old computer from people we knew or stores that were getting rid of their old ones. I learned 5x more ripping and putting those old computers back apart than I ever did reading computer magazines back then.

When you're talking about problems DYIers you are going about it the wrong way. This person has very little experience with physical hardware of a computer. You don't set your first grader off to school with a Calculus book in hand. You have to begin somewhere. Once he has graduated from the basics, then you can start tackling the more complex aspects with new hardware and compatibility.

Fulmar · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2007, 02:05:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Enduro

Roo, thanks for the offer. You know, you reminded me that I have an old P2 tucked away in the closet. I'll use it as my Frankenstein.
!

What I did with the first PC I took apart was diagram out and write down how everything was hooked up. I removed all the parts from the case and then reinstalled everything and booted it up etc. Sooner or later when I received more boneyard PCs and I started swapping parts and making mixed systems or tried making the fastest PC I could out of what I had.

Enduro · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2007, 02:26:43 AM »

Cool, Fulmar.

I've swapped out video cards, sound cards and have installed a hard drive before. It's the really expensive stuff (motherboards and CPU's) that I haven't really touched before. I just don't want to flush $500 down the drain because I was too afraid to ask for help.

You know what I mean.

I'll rip the P2 apart next weekend.

Good night!

humble · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2007, 12:24:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 0thehero
Whoa, dude. Not trying to fight, just illustrate that it's a bit more complex than pros or even amateur builders like to acknowledge. Lots of casual people can build machines, but not too many build them particularly well. I realize the battle cry is usually, "Fu[k Dell and HP and all the others; build your own!" And it's easy for us to do that--some of us can probably build systems literally blindfolded (I prefer to wear glasses). As for me not being a particularly talented instructor, we don't know each other so let's just look past that.

But he didn't build a box in 1992 (which as any of us who did can recall, was not exactly the best time to be a system builder...). Even so, there were 12V+ 4-pin connectors 15 years ago? There were 6-pin PCI-E molex outputs 15 years ago? How about those newfangled ATX 2.2 motherboard connections, as opposed to what passed for current even three years ago? RAM voltages don't matter right? Can I use an ATX 2.01 PSU on a new motherboard--the connectors look pretty similar, right? Should he install 20-pin or 24-pin power (they both fit the same)? Or how to configure SATA versus PATA in a BIOS? And it doesn't matter how you insert memory sticks in a multi-slot, dual-channel system, which was not an issue 15 years ago? Why do I have to hit F6 upon installation of Windows?

The number of DIY mistakes tech folks run across encompass all these issues; I stopped counting how many times people called me because their hard drives were jumped incorrectly or their CPU power lead wasn't plugged in or new video cards failed right after boot...because they didn't know their card needed a 6-pin molex connector, or worse, that it needed two, and that their old PSU couldn't handle it.

Not only are parts not parts, but physical assembly is only half the battle. I'm not saying the guy can't do it. But you wouldn't hand someone a wrench and an exploded diagram of a ten-year old engine and say, "OK, dude, go to town on this new model. It's not that much different than the old one..."

Then again, BBSes like this one are useful for fixing such things on frequent occasion.

Obviously the world turns, but everything you noted is a fundemental learning issue easily covered by simply reading and viewing provided documentation. Now building a true gaming box is far beyond the "build" itself. However cobbling the thing togeather is fairly simple. Now a "rebuild" can cause problems. If you try and put a AGP card in a PCI board or use old memory in a DDR board it simply wont happen. But a new build is easy as long as your parts match...which is easy enough. So you have a few connections to plug in...not really hard after all each is different. Sata pretty much eliminates slave/master/cable detect for normal builds. Your anology on the engine isnt really right since in effect it is the same as 15 yrs ago....functionly identical in fact. now as you pointed out the parts are different.....but configuration is the same.

I agree if your not comfortable then by all means find a local shop to build it out for you....nothing at all wrong with that. But remember the 16 yr old kid that actually buids it for you is making $8/hr and will knock it out in 30 min or so:).........

0thehero · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2007, 01:01:18 PM »

Quote

But remember the 16 yr old kid that actually buids it for you is making $8/hr and will knock it out in 30 min or so

: shudder :

Perish the thought. But you're right; some places have a very duct tape-and-bubble gum approach to building rigs.

Avaro · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:43:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 0thehero
: shudder :

Perish the thought. But you're right; some places have a very duct tape-and-bubble gum approach to building rigs.

lol.. Whatever you may think some 16yr old somewhere may know more than you..