Author Topic: Bring short icon range to the MA!  (Read 454 times)

Offline trotter

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« on: July 24, 2007, 02:04:50 PM »
Let's consider two of the most pressing issues that many consider to hinder gameplay in the main arenas.

1- Ganging. Or "hording". Some scenarios:
a) There's a fight, and people flock to it. As side "A" loses pilots, side "B" pilots easily flock to the fight from afar, giving the few remaining side "A" pilots neither a fair fight nor a chance for escape.

b) Several pilots from side "A" are flying together, and spot one or two side "B" pilots. Rather than engage at a reasonable clip of 3v2, 2v1, 4v2, it degenerates into a 7v2 matter.


2- Conservative style of play. Or "running".
Boom and zoom fighting often becomes a pass followed by an overly exagerrated extension. Fighters come in at alt searching for lower bogeys, but often run when presented with a co-alt threat.


Anyone who has been around this game a while has debated these issues more than they would like to admit, and many have simply given up on discussing them. Whether or not you think these issues are a problem, let's consider how a transition to the "short" icon range setting in the main arenas would influence this behavior.

First, if you aren't familiar with the term "short" icon settings, it simply means that the arena displays icons only within a shorter range than the typical 5,000 yards that is standard now in the MA. Short icon settings provide for icons to be displayed only within 3,000 yards.

The "short" icon setting is used in many historical setups in the Special Events Arena, as well as in the Axis vs. Allies Arena. The setting provides a more realistic aerial combat environment, placing emphasis upon situational awareness, while also making fights much more endemic to those who started them...with decreased visual recognition, there is less of a chance that those simply flying by will recognize a fight from afar and "jump in".

This, as you can see, will lead us right into a discussion of condition 1 (see above). In sequence A, Fighters who just upped from either side will have less of a chance of all flocking immediately to the first fight they see. Why? Because it will require them to be much closer to the fight to tell what is really going on. Keep in mind, identification at 3.0k rather than 5.0k may not sound like a lot if you have never played with the setting enabled before, but those who have can attest to the fact that the missing 2.0k of visual recognition range makes a huge difference.

You may argue that anyone with experience will be able to identify a large fight from afar even without icons, simply from the mass of dots. I would argue in return that short icon ranges in themselves would begin to eliminate the concept of a single mass of dots, creating two or three simultaneous aerial fights where there now, due to long range flocking, exists only one.

Sequence B of condition 1 is easily changed by a transition to short icon range. It will simply not be as easy for a roving group to pick out a vulnerable target from afar. Such fighter sweeps will now require closer investigation of possible targets.

This leads us to condition 2. If you consider condition 2 to be a problem, it may seem easy to place blame on the perpetrators themselves. I would not be so quick to blame, but instead realize that they are fairly using the tools presented to them. A 5.0k icon range allows them to sit high above the fight, picking targets, waiting for the opportunity to zoom down. As they extend, some feel as if they must go so far as to get out of icon range. Spotting a co-alt bogey at 5.0k out allows them time, no matter the orientation of their plane, to nose around the opposite direction and accelerate to the point where speed is more or less matched.

Now, if icon range was 3.0k. The high loitering fighter would have to get lower, closer to the fight in order to pick out targets. This in turn would limit their ability to zoom in at excessive speed and then hold on to that speed to use as a defensive measure. A closer orientation to the fight might even get some of these pilots started on a more proximal form of energy fighting...something which they are perfectly capable of, but have never felt the need to so long as they can remain 5.0k distant of a fight and still have striking capability.

Dots spotted co-alt would need to be first be spotted (much more difficult when there is not a red spotlight on them) and then investigated. A plane closing fast from 3.0k may be on this high loitering fighter before he has the chance to accelerate away, forcing him to complete at least some rudimentary evasive manuevers if he still wishes to run.

Some may say that a transition to short icon range may breed an even more conservative form of fighting. I would like to think of it the other way...that, yes, there will be some who remain panicky and even less inclined to fight offensively, but the majority will have their aerial skills tested, and will thus improve upon them.

And no, I am not promoting short icon range for the sake of punishing those who "fly to live". I, myself, often "fly to live". But I know from experience in Special Events and the AvA that flying to live is a much more immersive, thrilling experience when utilizing the heightened SA that short icon range dictates.



We have two Late War Arenas. I would personally like to see one of them utilized to test how the change would affect the dynamics of the game. What are some of the negatives of short icon range? I can't think of any, but I'm sure someone reading this has already thought of a few. What do you think?

Offline Ghastly

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2007, 03:49:47 PM »
Without any intent to pass any kind of judgement on the merits of the change itself (either pro or con), let me point out quite simply that the proposal is unworkable purely because we don't "really" have two arenas much of the time.

Often, (75% or more of the time when I sign on in prime time) one of the LW arena's is full.

And signing in to find that the "full range" arena is full and you "are being forced" to fly the "short range" arena if you don't like the shorter ranges is going to suck scummy pond water - and generate a whining crescendo that would compete with Krakatoa.
"Curse your sudden (but inevitable!) betrayal!"
Grue

Offline NoBaddy

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Re: Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2007, 04:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by trotter


 What do you think?


You asked..soooo.....

I think you should go play in the AvA. I find the shorter dot/icon stuff to make for a lot less fun. Realistic, immersing? Perhaps, work? Definitely. For me, it's like the folks that ask for more engine control or do away with radar and sector counters. All would make the game more "realistic". But, real war isn't fun. This game is supposed to be. :)
NoBaddy (NB)

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Offline BennyBeaver

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2007, 04:44:49 PM »
i actually agree with you...pretty sad when there are 17 cons and 17 friendly then 1st con in range every friendly flock in..then all other cons dive in wiping them up...i sit back and watch the show:D  and end up dying

Offline hubsonfire

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2007, 05:02:34 PM »
This is one of those realism things that I don't think will improve gameplay. All I can see this leading to is a lot more meandering around trying to find a bad guy, which means that instead of ganging or running away, we'll see more guys flying around for a bit, then ganging or running away.
mook
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Offline NoBaddy

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2007, 06:56:22 PM »
WTG Hub...you deserve a cookie! :)
NoBaddy (NB)

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Offline Jaco84

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2007, 07:15:00 PM »
I think that we will always have the boom and zoomers and the hords your talking about. Maybe just be more strategic with your engagements. There have been a few times that I have been outnumbered and ran but 10 to 1 I could pretty much guess the outcome of that one, of course they were talking crap on 200: and they always will.

Offline Vad

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Bring short icon range to the MA!
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2007, 08:27:24 PM »
I think it's bad idea, trotter.

Look at the  Aces High as complicated automatic system with a lot of control parameters and  outcomes.
Examples of governing stimuluses are the changes of icon range, lethality of weapons, flight models, ENV factors, arena limits, etc.
Examples of outcomes are the number and stability of hordes, level of cherry pickings, average time of live of map before they win the war, and, the most important, level of fun for majority of players and, as a result, HTC income.

What is important this system has a huge stochastic component. Distribution of numbers and skills level of players between sides are very random but have huge influence on the outcome of the system.
And, what is much more important, this system in general has positive feedback. A lot of players are changing sides or leaving the game if  his "country" is overcome.

Theoretically it is known that for such unstable systems small  changes in command variables lead to huge changes in outcomes. It's not so important for small arenas like AvA or special events, there stochastic factor is not so important and positive feedback is not so obvious.

About your suggestion. I predict that it would lead to huge increase in number of cherry pickers and  uneven fights. Why? Reduction of icon range would give advantage for those pilots who are not in fight right now, and who have time to take a look on radar map. After few months of flying you don't need to see icons of far dots, you can estimate balance of the sides comparing number and alts of seen dots and number of green marks on the radar map. But those who are in fight don't have time to look on radar map,  and would face enemy fighters when they will be in close range having no chance to prepare for defense. Obvious disadvantage for those who are actually fighting!