Author Topic: General Obama???  (Read 1190 times)

Offline lazs2

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General Obama???
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2007, 08:02:29 AM »
subaru... you are talking the primary.   I am sure that the liberals here will vote for any democrat that is in the race in the end.   You will vote for hillary if she wins the primary.

lazs

Offline JBA

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Re: Re: General Obama???
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2007, 08:39:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
If you don't understand the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan well you will never understand the point he's getting at. He supports a war on Terror not a war for oil and big money contracts.



Considering out defense of china’s Nan king region to protect it’s oil reserves led to the bombing of Pearl Harbor and our eventual involvement in WWII.

I guess you would not have supported that war either?
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Offline lazs2

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General Obama???
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2007, 08:52:29 AM »
It really doesn't matter where you fight so long as it hurts the enemy and is a good place for you.

In the end.. it is about economy and keeping it out of your yard.   The soviets  lost because they couldn't win the economic war.  It mattered not if they backed vietnam or afghanistan.. if we could get em to commit their money... they lost.

It matters not if we fight islamofacists in iraq or in afganistan.. if we can get em to fight and die and commit their resources someplace out of our back yard.

lazs

Offline Charon

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General Obama???
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2007, 09:04:08 AM »
Hilts is right. We face the same philosophical issues Truman did with the Korean War and the Chinese/Russians. Kind of hard to blame the Iranians for wanting the bomb -- it really does make a difference in diplomacy and politics.

Charon

Offline Charon

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General Obama???
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2007, 09:26:32 AM »
Quote
Forgive me, but the ignorance and complete lack of historical perspective contained in these statements is mind boggling! Saddam broke the cease fire agreement, providing legitimancy to the multi-national coalition of over thirty nations that either participated in or otherwise materially supported the invasion of Iraq. THAT is historical fact.

And Crocket, Saddam was supporting terror activities against the West, and providing safe harbor for them (including Al Quida). That has also been positively established. That, coupled with his breaking the terms of the cease fire of the first Gulf War and the universal belief by ALL major western intelligence agencies that he was trying to preserve and rebuild his WMD program made Iraq a logical target for prosecuting the WOT.


These are gross overstatements. Only Great Britain provided any substantive support beyond token gestures, with the governments of our coalition partners being generally at odds with their populations. It was a paper coalition backed up by a handful of troops here or there and the US and British military and economies shouldering the major burden, and even there, economically, the US by far more than the entire coalition combined.

As for supporting terrorism, there are probably 10 other countries in the region that supported radical Islamic terrorism to a far greater extent. Stalinist style secular dictators don't like to have competitors in their borders. Even the Bush administration (with the exception of Cheney) had backed away from this position fairly early on. Iran was a far more logical target under this framework, and for that matter Saudi Arabia.

Now, Saddam did break the cease fire agreements and did inhibit the inspection process. But, he had no active WMD program and was nowhere near close to making a bomb or a bomb infrastructure for that matter, but maybe 10 years or more down the road he could have managed a regional threat. IMO, I don't believe Bush lied but rather WMD were used as the most powerful selling tool for an invasion/realignment in the ME policy his senior foreign policy cabinet members had pushed since the 1990s. Too bad for bush his assumptions of WMDs (shared by many in the international and political community) turned out to be false. And, too bad the assumptions of the PNAC  looked better on paper than they worked in practice.

Had the Iraqi's welcomed us with open arms and set up the immediate US-friendly democracy that Wolfowitz and Cheney and Rumsfeld etc. expected -- our bastion in the Middle East --  then nobody would care either way today from liberals to the media to the triumphant self proclaimed conservatives. Everybody loves a winner.

As you point out though, the invasion was technically legal, with UN support and with the support of the Democrats in Congress.

Charon
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 09:33:23 AM by Charon »

Offline Maverick

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General Obama???
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2007, 10:07:33 AM »
Regarding Pakistan. It would be far easier and less costly to the Western nations if they just told India that they could have Pakistan. Then they could resolve it amongst themselves. Both sides there have nukes aimed at each other.

This should not be taken as an endorsement for that action, just pointing out that obama hasn't a clue to the regional background there.

That and this is a bona fide for the sarcasm impaired. :noid
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Offline Sabre

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General Obama???
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2007, 11:48:50 AM »
Charon: I don't in general disaggree with what you're saying.  Certainly international support was tepid by all but a few nations, but it was support nonetheless.  And yes, there are other countries in the region that were/are more activily supporting Islamic terrorism; however, we had not even a pretense of international legitamacy to attack them.  The possibility that we might establish a stable, friendly democracy right in the middle of this decidely unfriendly region was a worthy goal.  My point is that if one holds the position that we had insufficient cause to invade Iraq, then unilateral military action in Pakistan is even less justifiable.  It would be the absolute dumbest, most dangerous move we could make at this critical juncture in history; in short, it would be the shortest, most direct route to regional (if not global) armeggedon.
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Offline Speed55

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General Obama?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2007, 11:53:25 AM »
No thanks.
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Offline Charon

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General Obama???
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2007, 11:55:14 AM »
Quote
My point is that if one holds the position that we had insufficient cause to invade Iraq, then unilateral military action in Pakistan is even less justifiable. It would be the absolute dumbest, most dangerous move we could make at this critical juncture in history; in short, it would be the shortest, most direct route to regional (if not global) armeggedon.


Then I agree completely.

Obama is really showing his Junior Senator status. He's just a Dick Durban hand puppet anyway. With luck we'll find a few more questionable real estate deals before Nov 08.

Charon
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 12:10:54 PM by Charon »

Offline Eagler

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General Obama???
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2007, 12:19:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
... then nobody would care either way today from liberals to the media to the triumphant self proclaimed conservatives. Everybody loves a winner.

Charon


you are very wrong there
politics trumps cause this days
Even if Iraq was Disney of the Middle East, the dems and their allies in the media would ***** about something concerning it, probably all the $$$ it took to get Mickey Mouse there stating those $$$ should have been spent on the dems voting base - those on the gov dole

did you forget? Bush is da evil!!!!! LOL

ps

IMO Iraq was all about Iran from day one ... I don't care the reason/excuse that got our troops next door to them, I think it is foolish to remove them before the Iranian nuke threat is eliminated ... hope we don't find out the hard way i am correct.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 12:21:51 PM by Eagler »
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Offline crockett

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Re: Re: Re: General Obama???
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2007, 12:47:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Forgive me, but the ignorance and complete lack of historical perspective contained in these statements is mind boggling!  Saddam broke the cease fire agreement, providing legitimancy to the multi-national coalition of over thirty nations that either participated in or otherwise materially supported the invasion of Iraq.  THAT is historical fact.  Of course it was a coalition of the willing.  What else could it possible be?  If you think we had insufficient justification for Iraq, what possible justification could you put forth for armed incursions into a sovereign allied nation?:huh  Mexico is not doing enought to stop illegal immigration and drug trafficing into the US.  Lets invade them!:rolleyes:  
]


Oh so wait, so now the entire reason it was ok to go into Iraq was because he broke a cease fire agreement? You really think that would be enough to convince the American people and the world to attack Iraq?

I thought it was about WMD's and evil terrorists.. That's what your boy kept claiming.


Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Obama has not support any of the measures or steps taken so far to combat terror.  His statements about Pakistan are simply his attempt to portray himself as tough on terror, and shows his complete lack of the political and military realities.  Instead they reveal a man with no deapth of experience or understanding.  Invade Pakistan?  A nation of 160 million armed with nuclear weapons and a barely contained jihadist leanings?  You think controlling Bahgdad is tough, try a nation with eight times the population and terrain that is tailormade for hit and fade insurgency tactics.
]


Maybe it is, but much can be said about most of what George Bush says.. He always says one thing and does another. What did Iraq have to do with 9/11 or Terrorism again? I'd rather attack a nation whom was actually harboring terrorist.. Even if that nation was a "so called" ally.

BTW so I assume if we knew where bin Laden was right this min, and he happened to be in Pakistan.. You would be against striking him if Pakistan was giving him safe harbor and refused to go after him?


Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
And Crocket, Saddam was supporting terror activities against the West, and providing safe harbor for them (including Al Quida).  That has also been positively established.  That, coupled with his breaking the terms of the cease fire of the first Gulf War and the universal belief by ALL major western intelligence agencies that he was trying to preserve and rebuild his WMD program made Iraq a logical target for prosecuting the WOT. [/B]


Oh really? so Saddam was giving safe harbor to al Qaeda and he supported terrorism? Really who told you that George Bush?

I guess you haven't been brought up to speed on the current retrotec. I'll try to help you. I know you will never believe anything that I say.. So how about right from the horses mouth..


George Bush says no links to 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LwMTjeu5f4

Dick Cheney says, Iraq has no provable links to al Qaeda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RytxVNM0llQ
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 12:49:57 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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General Obama???
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2007, 12:55:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
It really doesn't matter where you fight so long as it hurts the enemy and is a good place for you.

In the end.. it is about economy and keeping it out of your yard.   The soviets  lost because they couldn't win the economic war.  It mattered not if they backed vietnam or afghanistan.. if we could get em to commit their money... they lost.

It matters not if we fight islamofacists in iraq or in afganistan.. if we can get em to fight and die and commit their resources someplace out of our back yard.

lazs


Seems to be working the oppiosate of how you would like. We are slowly losing our allies and our econemy is suffering from the war. Meanwhile the "islamofacists" as you call them are gaining more and more support while we lose the little support we had.

Great plan..
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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General Obama???
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2007, 01:07:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Charon: I don't in general disaggree with what you're saying.  Certainly international support was tepid by all but a few nations, but it was support nonetheless.  And yes, there are other countries in the region that were/are more activily supporting Islamic terrorism; however, we had not even a pretense of international legitamacy to attack them.  The possibility that we might establish a stable, friendly democracy right in the middle of this decidely unfriendly region was a worthy goal.  My point is that if one holds the position that we had insufficient cause to invade Iraq, then unilateral military action in Pakistan is even less justifiable.  It would be the absolute dumbest, most dangerous move we could make at this critical juncture in history; in short, it would be the shortest, most direct route to regional (if not global) armeggedon.


Well honestly it's your guy George Bush whom said "you are either with us or against us". So it seems that's just another catch phrase for the papers right?

Was it not Bush whom first said al Qaeda should have no hiding ground? You are either with us or against us? Obama is actually just repeating what George Bush said. The diffrence is George Bush "said it" first, but has failed to carry through with it.
"strafing"

Offline Elfie

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Re: Re: Re: Re: General Obama???
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2007, 01:26:50 PM »
Quote
Oh really? so Saddam was giving safe harbor to al Qaeda and he supported terrorism? Really who told you that George Bush?

I guess you haven't been brought up to speed on the current retrotec. I'll try to help you. I know you will never believe anything that I say.. So how about right from the horses mouth..


George Bush says no links to 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LwMTjeu5f4

Dick Cheney says, Iraq has no provable links to al Qaeda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RytxVNM0llQ [/B]


Your own links don't support your statements.

Iraq did have ties to terrorists, Iraq did give safe harbor including medical care to at least one Al-Qaeda member. There were also terrorist training camps in Iraq. It has also been documented that Zarqawi, former leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq had himself and his organization in Iraq before we invaded.

Just a couple of the links from my google search *terrorist training camps in Iraq*

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

Saying Iraq had no ties to terrorism is just as rediculous as saying Iraq had ties to 9/11.
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Offline crockett

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: General Obama???
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2007, 01:57:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Your own links don't support your statements.

Iraq did have ties to terrorists, Iraq did give safe harbor including medical care to at least one Al-Qaeda member. There were also terrorist training camps in Iraq. It has also been documented that Zarqawi, former leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq had himself and his organization in Iraq before we invaded.

Just a couple of the links from my google search *terrorist training camps in Iraq*

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

Saying Iraq had no ties to terrorism is just as rediculous as saying Iraq had ties to 9/11.


So you want to justify a war that over 3 thousand US soldiers have died, who knows how many of the coalition of the willing and private contractors much less the thousands of civilians whom have all died for one tango meeting and 3 training camps.

 Damn I wonder when we will be invading Sudan, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, ect..ect..ect..

If we knew where these camps were, wouldn't a few cruse missiles have been slightly most cost effective?
"strafing"