Author Topic: P-51 landing accident at AirVenture  (Read 2025 times)

Offline Viking

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2007, 10:10:55 AM »
I'm sure he was a great person, but he still did an idiotic mistake and caused a completely avoidable accident that could have killed a lot more people than just himself. If I had screwed up that bad and somehow survived I would have shot myself.

Offline Toad

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2007, 10:48:18 AM »
How many hours do you have again Schultz?

That's what I thought.

It's always easy to second guess the guy in the seat, especially after he's dead and can't defend himself.

It looks like he made a mistake. But absolutely no one knows what the guy holding the stick was seeing, hearing, feeling, doing...

oh wait... this is all wasted on you.

Sorry.
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Offline Viking

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2007, 10:53:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
How many hours do you have again Schultz?


57. Yeah I know it not a lot.



Quote
Originally posted by Toad
It looks like he made a mistake. But absolutely no one knows what the guy holding the stick was seeing, hearing, feeling, doing...


Actually from the video posted in the other thread it is quite easy to see that the lead Mustang dropped under the 51A's nose and would not be visible unless Mr.  Beck somehow could see through the nose or wing of his plane.

Offline Golfer

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2007, 11:44:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
57. Yeah I know it not a lot.


Then keep your damn mouth shut when it comes to things you wouldn't have the first clue about.  Casca said it best.  He had an outstanding reputation as an upstanding member of the aviation world whereas you'll amount to little more than a cancer cell.

Offline Toad

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2007, 12:02:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Actually from the video posted in the other thread it is quite easy to see that the lead Mustang dropped under the 51A's nose  


Did it make it quite easy to see WHY  the lead Mustang dropped under the 51A's nose?


Did it make it quite easy to see what the situation was within Mr. Beck's plane?

Did it make it quite easy to see exactly what Mr. Beck saw?

Did it make it quite easy to see exactly how much time Mr. Beck had to react?

Did it make it quite easy to see the current situation of Mr. Beck's plane and if it was even possible to take successful corrective action given the aircraft's capabilities?

Or are you just assuming you know exactly what happened here?

Stuff happens. Pilots make mistakes. Sometimes once a chain of events begins, the end result is unavoidable.

Damn shame to lose a fine pilot and a great airplane. That's really all there is to say here and all that needs to be said here.

That's all I have to say in this thread.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Casca

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2007, 02:15:20 PM »
Golfer and Toad summed it up nicely.  It's easy to second guess outcomes sitting in Norway blogging in one's mother's basement.  I can't see his posts anymore (say, that works neat :) ) but it seems from Golfer's quote that he has, what, 57 whopping hours.  Not the go to guy on questions involving real pilots flying real airplanes.  

Hell, I have that much time in the shade of wires and Scruffy (Gerry Beck) had a lot more than that.  He started a a sprayer.  Spraying involves several hundred important decisions a day and one gets instant feedback on whether it was the correct one or not.  At OshKosh he made a final decision with an unfortunate outcome.   To call him an "idiot" is ignorant slander at best.  Anyone that would do that is an... um what is the term I am groping for?
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Offline Maverick

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2007, 03:43:41 PM »
Casca,

 I believe the politest term that typifies what you want is the same one that fits mcfarland, a blivet.
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Offline Viking

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2007, 03:58:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Golfer
Then keep your damn mouth shut...


Nope. Won't do that sir. :)

Offline Viking

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2007, 04:15:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Did it make it quite easy to see exactly what Mr. Beck saw?


No, but it is pretty clear what he didn't see. For at least two seconds the lead Mustang was out of Mr. Beck's, even his most optimistic, field of view. In those seconds the lead plane slowed down and dropped down onto the runway. Mr. Beck dove to regain visual contact and to follow him and that was his mistake; his plane picked up too much speed and when the lead Mustang was back in his field of view there was too little time to prevent the disaster. At least that's my take on it.



Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Stuff happens. Pilots make mistakes.


That's the kind of attitude that gets people killed. Yes pilots makes mistakes, but it is never acceptable when the consequences are that bad.

Quote
Originally posted by Casca
To call him an "idiot" is ignorant slander at best.


I've never called Mr. Beck an idiot. His choice of actions were idiotic. Different thing altogether.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 04:17:34 PM by Viking »

Offline moose

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2007, 04:25:25 PM »
very classy there viking. i'm sure that if you bit the dirt in an accident due to pilot error your family and friends would love people slandering you like you have mr. beck. i guess its easy to sling mud at a guy who you never and will never meet.

its a dangerous business, accidents do happen, and obviously you haven't learned that from your few hours in a real airplane.
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Offline Viking

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2007, 04:32:57 PM »
If I did that I'd deserve it. Perhaps it is a cultural difference thing; over here we call people for what they are and do. Dead or alive. A couple of years ago two young men died in a high-speed traffic accident here. The local newspaper headline was something to the effect of: "Two killed while driving like idiots".

Offline Golfer

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2007, 08:48:29 PM »
That man forgot more about flying airplanes than you will ever hope to know in ten lifetimes.  Your 57 hours of experience give you zero right, no perspective and even less insight to the type of flying they do and operation of their airplanes.  Like Casca said both he and Mr. Beck have more time in the shadows of power lines than you do total time.  If you think you have anything to say to either of them it better end with "sir" and start with "May I wash your airplane?"

The answer will be no just to offer you the slightest perspective on where you stand.  You just built yourself a pretty high fence around yourself too.  Good luck getting out of your ignorance box, sport.

Offline JB73

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2007, 10:11:07 PM »
You know... Gscholz I have been a "bud" for quite some time, and always have been respectful...

but I do have to say I think you are dead wrong on this matter.

As a friend I'd say let it lie bro <>
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Offline Seagoon

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2007, 10:14:25 PM »
To date I've seen two airshow crashes, both were planes flown by excellent pilots.

An airshow routine generally never consists of a couple of routine turns, it is a long string of difficult and dangerous maneuvers which all have to be practiced executed close to the ground with a very small margin for error. Add extra planes to the routine, and the danger increases exponentially. From the early barnstorming days, the emphasis has always been on flying that pushes the envelope and has the pilot constantly on the brink of a fiery death, that is what we expect to see when we go to an airshow. Providence smiles on some pilots and they end up dying of natural causes, but with others one day something goes wrong with one of those almost innumerable variables, and they end up flying into something harder than air. Although we don't realize it, essentially the same thing can happen to us on the way to the store one day. One day one of those things we've executed flawlessly 10,000 times before suddenly goes very wrong and we end up crashing our car. Sometimes it isn't even our set of variables that goes catastrophically awry, its another drivers problem that ends up being the end of us.

He was a fine pilot and he didn't die because he was an idiot, he died because he couldn't control providence, he was a good pilot who did his best but like all men he wasn't God and consequently he wasn't in charge of the way all of those little variables fell in line that day. His day came, just as one way or another, whether we are good or bad at what we do, that day will come for all of us no matter how desperately we try to stave it off. The only question therefore is the ultimate question, are you prepared for that day? Are you ready to die?

I don't take too many risks myself, but regardless, I know there is a day appointed for me to come before my maker, and that probably sooner than I think and probably not when I expect it. I'm not afraid of that day though, as I preached recently at the funeral of the wife of an excellent C-130 flight engineer, "I know that this mortal body that I walk around in today, will someday wear out, and that unless Christ returns first someday I will die. Today I am preaching at Margie’s funeral, someday someone, and hopefully a better preacher than me, will be preaching at my funeral. But friends I am not afraid of that day because Jesus has taken the sting out of death for me. Because He has paid for my sins, all that death can do is convey me into his presence, the curse of it is gone forever. So I do not fear it."

Viking, we need to be humble enough to realize that we are not immortal and that none of "execute life flawlessly" and that someday, all of us are going to die no matter what we do. To think that our paying extra close attention to detail twenty four by seven will nullify that fact is sheer hubris. I'm just glad that this man lived a life whose passing is lamented, far too many don't, and I salute him for that. I hope he was ready for that day, but at this point only he and God know that. The mature reaction to events like this is not a shallow condemnation, but a sobering reflection that "where he has gone, I will someday follow."

"Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil." (James 4:16-17)

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Offline Maverick

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P-51 landing accident at AirVenture
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2007, 12:27:39 PM »
The flying situation at Air Venture is pretty darn complex. The fact that they can blend so many different types of aircraft with so many different pilots and not with a lot of time is just amazing to me. When I first read the procedures for flying into the air port for the show it scared me silly to see what kind of plans they laid down to do this and not with 2 way communication at all times or even similar performance aircraft much less professional vs low time amature pilots. That they do this year after year with out recurring disasters is worthy of a large degree of respect IMO.
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