Questions About Reversing Opponents: Best Way?

[DoNKeY]

Just so you guys know, the following questions I know pertain to any plane, but since the Dora is what I fly the most, thats what I use in my examples and would appreciate it if the answers were geared a little more towards them.    Thanks.

When I'm in a Dora I always have trouble when I get someone on my six.  Usually were up high with some altitude.  One instance is when someone is on my six.  I usually dive away if they are close enough, and then gain some speed and seperation and then immelman to reverse.  Is there a better way to do this, because this leads to my next thing I have trouble with.  I start to come back to them, and dodge the head on.  So I try to immelman again to reverse, but most of the time they do to, and they do it quicker so they they the shot on me while I am still trying to finish the immelman and get an angle.  This leads to me trying to jynx at the last second to throw off thier shot.  Then I dive a little and try to gain some speed to immelman again while they are already reversing.   This happens again and again untill either they are on my six or I have to break because they are about to get on my six.  So I usually dive and gain some seperation and then immelman to reverse and come back at them.  As you can see this is a never ending process, one which when I get into it I almost always lose.  So, how do I go about doing this better?  Also, another problem I seem to alwasy have no matter what plane(although I just seem to fly the dora a lot) is that when someone is one my six at say D1000 and I have some speed, I'll try to loop or immelman to try and reverse while conserving energy.  As I'm going up they always seem to cut inside of my loop and mow me down, or if I roll a little to change the heading of my loop or immelman they stay right with me.  This happens whether I make it an extending loop/immelman (where I gain 4-5k or alt) or try to make it the smallest radius without the stall buzer sounding to badly.  I really would like some input on what you think I'm doing wrong and how I can fix it.  When ever I'm on someones six and they loop/immelman I immediantly start to loop with them and get a brief snapshoot on them, but usually can't even see thier plane because its under my nose with how much lead I  have to give becuase of the g's im pulling.  How do people do it so easily??  Do they start to loop when I do or keep flying straight and then loop in the "spot" where I started my loop?  They make it seem like its so easy and always kill me but when I am in their spot the best I get is a "I can't see them so I'll shoot here and hope thats where they'll fly".

Also, how do I gain/extract the most out of a superior roll rate?  Basically what are the best ways to use it to my advantage.

So frustrating lol.  So yeah, and advice/help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[mtnman]

Reversing when someone is on your six-  I don't like the immel.  If you are equal in speed, slower, or even only slightly faster than the bad guy he'll catch you and kill you.  I love to see someone pull an immel in front of me, hehe.

I do more of a low yo-yo to the right or left.  This allows me to have some more speed when I get my nose pointed back towards the guy with evil intent.  I like to be lower than my opponent at the merge, but about equal in speed and bringing my nose up.  This way I can merge more nose-up, while he merges nose-down.  Not a big angle up or down, generally less than 45 degrees.

As I'm merging nose-up, I'm slowing, which tightens up my turn radius.  He's speeding up as he merges nose down, which opens his turn radius.  The combination of the two allows me to loop over onto his six in a slight dive to catch up, while he is still on his way back up.

The result is me on his six at about D600 and closing as he slows at the top.  He dies when the counter shows D200.

If you immel with a guy on your six you'd better be faster than him or he'll catch you and be a real pain.  If you are faster, and he's close eough behind you (D1.5K)and you read his E correctly, you can rope him.  To do that just raise your nose slightly until you can't see the horizon over the cowl anymore.  He won't see the horizon anymore either.  Now, just continue to bring the nose up gradually until you are vertical.  If you do it subtle enough he won't realize he's vertical until it's too late.  If you pull up too rapidly you will give him a corner to cut across, and he'll kill you.  The trick is to stay just out of gun range to keep him interested.  Look tasty.

Done right, you'll both stall out at the top of the vertical, but you'll still be above him.  As you nose back down you'll be on his six.  Done even better, he'll stall while you still have enough speed to turn back down, either with rudder or by pulling the stick back for a back-flopping "loop".  This way, while he flops D600 below you, you point your nose at him and blast him while he's helpless.  I often find a notch or two of flaps will help me get my nose over the top and pointed back down.  Those flaps need to be put back up RIGHT AWAY as you nose down though, or they'll mess up your shot.  As you reach the top of your vertical (zoom climb) watch him out of your six view, and start your reversal as soon as you detect him flopping/stalling.  This is a deadly devastating manuever when you figure it out.  You'll die lots at first because you haven't read his E-state correctly, or pulled up to sharply allowing him to cut the corner on you.

It does sound like you're trying to out-turn your opponent with immels, etc.  I don't like the immel for that, and I don't think the Dora is much of a turner.  I think the tactics you are using are getting you killed.  In the Dora you need to stay fast.

You can use your roll rate to your advantage by rolling left, say, and pulling slightly, and then rolling 180 degrees and pulling again (to the right)(scissors).  If your opponent follows your lead, he won't be able to roll back right as fast as you, and so won't be able to follow you through your second or third break.  You can use that to escape.  Beware though.  When you scissor you slow down.  Generally you'll be trying to force the guy on your six out in front.  I'd use it in a Dora to make him miss a shot and then extend out 3k for a new merge. (I wouldn't be caught in a Dora though).  If you try it vs a better turner you'll be left slow and in dire trouble unless you kill him fast as he goes by.  A slow Dora is 99/100's dead.

MtnMan

[Spatula]

First off, immelman reversals to reverse back on a fast pursuer is not the optimum reversal. Often it will get you too slow at the top to maintain reasonable turn performance, it may even leave you dangerously slow to perform an effective guns defense. Also it means you will, if you get your nose back around in time, you'll be attacking nose-down, and your opponent attacking nose-up - which as mtnman said, makes it harder for you in any follow up reversal.
The thing you must remember is that there is no one move which will reverse you the fastest and safest every time - its all situational. Also remember that you will turn at your best possible rate (eg turn most degrees/sec possible) at your aircraft's optimum corner velocity. So, in order to reverse (or turn any number of degrees) in the fastest possible way is to do so at a speed at or around your aircraft's optimum corner velocity. What this means in practice is before you attempt to reverse, you need to check your current airspeed and employ a maneuver which will optimise your turn/reversal performance, by keeping you at or around your aircraft's optimal corner velocity.
If you're slower than your corner velocity then use gravity to help you keep as close to your corner velocity as possible. The move would be something like a slice-back - which is essentially a 45 degree split-s, or a diving turn. Use any angle appropriate to get corner velocity. Be wary of picking too much speed tho.
If you're faster than your corner velocity then again using gravity to bring you closer to your corner velocity. This time you use gravity to wipe off speed by doing a pitch-back or climbing turn. Use as much angle as you need to keep at corner velocity. Be wary of getting too slow at the top.
If you're at your corner velocity a flat-turn or a slightly diving turn would be optimal.
Remember you're aiming to stay at or around your corner velocity for optimum turn performance. You're not looking for the tightest or smallest radius circle, you're looking for the best turn rate - eg degrees per second to get around the circle as fast as possible. You may be constrained by G forces for the first part of the turn, so ride that black-out tunnel.

So, you're next question is what is your best corner velocity for the Dora? Well i cant answer that, but typically a speed around 270 MPH should be a good ball-park, IMO.

Also, from your post it sounds to me that not only are you perhaps not reversing optimally, but it also sounds like you're not allowing enough room to reverse safely and rebuild speed to safely enter a follow-on maneuver/reversal. You want to allow yourself enough room to reverse, build back up to optimal corner velocity at the point of the inevitable follow-on merge. From here employing a lead-turn can be useful as your pursuer will be well above their corner speed and will not be able to compete due to excess speed. I think about 2.5 - 3.0 is a healthy amount of room to complete a good reversal which will give you options for any follow-up maneuvering.
Closer than that you will have to accept a less than optimal follow-on merge. Sometimes, you can deliberately not turn fully back into your opponent, drop throttle and reverse back into them while pulling up as they close into range, setting up an overshoot or rolling scissors, or even flat scissors. But this is a little more risky.

[humble]

I think you need to break down your question into 3 parts...

1) reverse to engage (2.0 or greater)

Variables are based on plane match up and your prefered tactics. No offense intended but your basically a "one trick" dora and really dont have the skillset (yet) to actually engage and win without the advantage. Accordingly the single most important thing is that you reverse in a low yoyo. You need to establish the under and fly a "long" opener...if you have positive E you come over and engage from the advantage otherwise you dont.

2) reverse to deny a gun solution (1.0-2.0)

Here your line of reverse is dependent on closure and the bogies orientation. Again the low yoyo is preferred since it presents both a harder shot and increases your speed (and his). Again you need to be prepared for the con to counter to a hi yoyo in which case your best move is probably to pull into him and try to force a rolling scissors

3) reverse to live (1.0 and under)

Here your really looking to force an overshoot. You want a nose low break turn to put the con on your "outside track"...if you see he's inside (pulling lead then your in a scissors movement already and need to act accordingly.

You should be able to find examples of each on plenty of films...

This was posted elsewhere but shows a reverse to engage. Initially I'm gently climbing to create a bit of room vor the vertical and keep E...the reverse itself is a low yoyo, which he counters with a hi yoyo...as mentioned above the correct move is generally to pull into him. He loses sight or refuses the scissor...

This same set of flight moves would have produced the same outcome in a dora as an A-20...assuming he flew the same.

reverse to engage

[TequilaChaser]

some good responses here for you Donkey, but I would learn the  Fw190D dora and all its attributes and incapabilities 1st.........

one must know their planes performance boundries before they can move on to BFM........ although 99% of all of us players neglect this oversight......

this does not mean "stop dogfighting &/or playing the game"

it means spend dedicated aloted time each and every week if not 2 or 3 times a week on actually learning the plane type you desire to fly and fight in ( by practicing flying it and testing different things,
 minimal speed needed for Immelman,
minimal alt needed for splits,
what speeds do the flaps drop at each notch setting,  
at what speed do I know longer have the ability to turn because of the G-Factor and blacking out, practice rding the tunnel ,
practice spiral climbs, zoom climbs, unloaded climbs,
learn the best instantaneous turn rate( corner speed )
learn the best sustained turn speed/rate,
learn when it stalls, what and when it has went beyond stall and causes spins,
learn the roll rates rudder/non-rudder assisted, with and without flaps

 "really know your plane"......... then begin picking up on the  attributes and incapabilities of the most often fought against planes 1st to shorten the learning curve then progress on from there.....doing this will also open your eye to a whole nother world of online dogfighting fun


most times though people put the cart before the horse and end up having to back up and start over and switch up the right way.......

hope this helps

[humble]

Donkey, the best thing you can to is take advantage of the tremendous resources the game provides. The training cadre is exceptional, all of them are quite acomplished and between them they have expertise in all planes and flying styles. Asking question here is a great 1st step, asking them in the TA where a trainer can SHOW YOU and WALK YOU THRU the various options is even better...

I clipped out a guns reverse....this is actually a kind of a slow (hey its an A-20:)) barrel roll defense so it doesnt match up to a true break turn. What it shows well is the combination of turn and use of all the demensions. Any type of a "flat" break turn sets up a whats called a "plane form" shot...this is where the bogie "see's" the entire plane like you would be looking down on it....this puts everything from the prop to the tail in play (with YOU in the center)...as a general rule very bad things happen when the other guy gets one of these...

guns defense

[Latrobe]

Donkey I think Mace's write up help me out the most on this subject  here's a link

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/overshoot/overshoot.htm

Now here's a little advice from me.
Here's a little scenerio. There's an enemy 109 1.0K off my six and closing. What I would do is start off with an eratic and unexpected move, such as a simple barrel roll. When you do a barrel roll you loose a little alt. Now as the 109 tries to dive and get back on my six I'd break hard pulling a high G turn. If he tries to turn with me, just keep turning. When he overshoots outside of my flight path (explained in Mace's write-up) I'd barrel roll over behind him, or High yo-yo behind him.

If I didn't make an eratic move first then I would see he's closing meaning he has more E than me, so I'd chop my throttle (maybe 25%) then perform a Split-S. If he rolls left to do a Split-S to follow then I'd break right, and if he rolls right I'd go left. Now it's all about the turn fight (which an F4U can easily win over the 109)

When trying to reverse someone always keep in mind to stay out of their firiing line, and do everything you can to make them overshoot.

[humble]

The single most important element to a reverse is intent. As MtnMan posted elsewhere the better players all have one thing in common. They are trying to kill you not avoid you. Accordingly you should make no move that is simply to avoid. Any action you take should be intended to achieve a specific response (which you may or may not get). You need to have some thought to what your response to their reaction will be. As you progess you'll be more likely to get your intended reaction and your response will become more refined.

As your skills improve and your understanding of relative positioning improves this feel extends earlier and earlier into the fight. If you go to the A-20 stuff and look at the little write up my comments at the very beginning are genuine...I'm "wiggling" slightly for a reason. I'm looking for the merge to "look right" to me. He's doing the same. If we go farther you'll see where I try to comment on fuzes questions {hope it made some sense to you fuse}. Things either "look right" or they don't. You dont have time to anynalitically (sp??) assess stuff in real time...so you work to evolve feel. Go forward to the shot on blauv...I roll the A-20 in the opposite direction (shades of baba blakcsheep:)). Why, I have no clue. I dont even know when its actually correct ACM or not...I know it felt right and I was "behind" and "out of sync" and needed to change . If you look at that one film you see 3 specific times that "feel" came into play. !st when he was coming up to me and I rolled away and up...then the change in roll for the shot and then the "flip" in the scissors with the jug...

Whats this lead to...

1) as TC said...before all else know your plane
2) every action has a purpose
3) every result is not as expected
4) learn and adapt based on what you expected and what occured
5) "trust the force" and follow your instincts