Author Topic: If There Was One Change to Ah... (Read 3490 times)

Lusche · « **Reply #75 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:13:57 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Actually, against the bombers with full coverage flown by a guy who knows his stuff, it's impossible.

Unless the fighter pilot also knows his stuff, then the buff pilot is in deep dodo again, no matter how skilled he is....

1Boner · « **Reply #76 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:45:18 AM »

Bombers in this game are for wimps. It takes patience and a lot of gunnery skill, but absolutely no flying skill. It takes even less flying ability than a Spitfire 16.< Benny Moore>

How can you argue with that kind of logic?

Wow,

Boner

Rich46yo · « **Reply #77 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:53:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Actually, against the bombers with full coverage flown by a guy who knows his stuff, it's impossible. You will be killed even using the correct tactics. He has far more guns than you, and can shoot no matter where you are relative to him and where he is relative to you, as long as you're in range. That means that even when you can't shoot him (as in, when diving away after a vertical pass), you'll still get hit. Bombers in this game are for wimps. It takes patience and a lot of gunnery skill, but absolutely no flying skill. It takes even less flying ability than a Spitfire 16.

Well maybe we think flying fighters takes no flying skill, and are for wimps. Imagine thinking that someone takes 3 Buffs into enemy territory alone, successfully takes out targets, and survives the fighters and ack, turns around and makes it home? Imagine that taking no skill?

I suspect during the war fighter pilots thought the same thing, tho you never caught one of them flying a 70,000 lb bomber, loaded with 4,000 gallons of gas and 6,000 lbs of bombs, within 300' of 6 other bombers. Boy if I want an easy day I'll fly a fighter around, chasing my tail in a firball. A hard day is flying a B-24 in BOX.

There are also very few fighter pilots that know how to take on bombers. Last night I had a guy in a spit circle my 24s, no doubt thinking he was slick, and he didnt notice I gradually cut power to get him to 1,000', where he probably thought he was still safe. A 2 sec burst taught him otherwise.

That took a lot of hours in a bomber to learn that lead, to learn to get them to target, take it out, and get them home. And one thing it wasnt was "easy". Luckily Ive found "fighters in this game are for wimps.

Lusche is one guy who "knows how to take on bombers". Flying around in his German rocket ship of his against a stick like that, in a fighter like that, its almost impossable to defend against. The best way to do so is avoid him, avoid the radar, plan well, be patient...ect. And thats another thing, the very good bomber sticks are generally very smart. And "older", which means they have wisdom.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #78 on:** August 23, 2007, 12:26:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1Boner
Bombers in this game are for wimps. It takes patience and a lot of gunnery skill, but absolutely no flying skill. It takes even less flying ability than a Spitfire 16.< Benny Moore>

How can you argue with that kind of logic?

Wow,

Boner

You can't, you just laugh at it because it's a funnier joke knowing the person believes it.

ack-ack

475FG Savlan · « **Reply #79 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:41:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's funny, I don't know what about "Aces High" implies bombers. There were no aces in bombers. [/B]

US gunners gave a remarkable account of themselves. In Eighth Air Force, bombers claimed 6,259 enemy aircraft destroyed, 1,836 probables, and 3,210 damaged. On all counts, the record topped that of the Eighth's fighter pilots. Other heavy, medium, and light bomber units showed similar records.

Some units gave the gunners more recognition, and some of their stories have survived. In 1989, for example, the newsletter of the 99th Bomb Group Historical Society reprinted an old article from Impact Magazine titled "Our Only Enlisted Man to Become an Air Ace." The subject was SSgt. Benjamin Warmer, who joined the 99th as a B-17 waist gunner and flew during the invasion of Italy. The piece credits Sergeant Warmer with shooting down two planes on a mission to Naples and seven more during a strike against German airfields on Sicily.

Sergeant Warmer's story also is recounted in a 1986 book, Aerial Gunners: The Unknown Aces of World War II, by Charles Watry and Duane Hall. The book confirms Warmer's nine kills but challenges the claim that he was the only enlisted gunner ace in World War II. It names several others, including three noncommissioned officers who flew with the Army Air Forces.

Aerial Gunners reports that, in the China-Burma-India theater, TSgt. Arthur P. Benko may have downed nine planes and TSgt. George W. Gouldthrite five. Watry and Hall also credit SSgt. John P. Quinlan with five victories in Europe and three in the Pacific. Sergeant Quinlan was the tail gunner of Memphis Belle, the B-17 bomber that became the subject of a wartime documentary and a recent fictionalized movie. Neither Sergeant Quinlan's name nor those of the other three airmen appear on USAF's official list of aces.

Source: Air Force Magazine Online
http://www.afa.org/magazine/1991/0491aces.asp

Benny Moore · « **Reply #80 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:43:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Lusche
Unless the fighter pilot also knows his stuff, then the buff pilot is in deep dodo again, no matter how skilled he is...

You're quite wrong. If both players are equally skilled gunners, then there's nothing the fighter pilot can do. The bomber has several times the fighter's firepower, and it can fire regardless of either aircraft's orientation. The fighter can only fire when it is facing the bomber, and the bomber can return fire at this time (with more firepower, remember). Now when the fighter stops facing the bomber (when he dives past the bomber, for instance), the bomber still gets to fire at him, and now the fighter can't fire back.

You people claiming that it takes flying skill to fight in a bomber are fools. You don't manuever in a bomber; you fly pretty much straight and level and gun the other guy down, and no maneuver he does will save him. As I said, it takes gunnery skill to get survive in a bomber, but no flying skill.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #81 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:48:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rich46yo
Well maybe we think flying fighters takes no flying skill, and are for wimps. Imagine thinking that someone takes 3 Buffs into enemy territory alone, successfully takes out targets, and survives the fighters and ack, turns around and makes it home? Imagine that taking no skill?

That took a lot of hours in a bomber to learn that lead, to learn to get them to target, take it out, and get them home. And one thing it wasnt was "easy".

Hey moron, learn to read. Re-read my post. I said no flying skill. I also expressely stated that it did take gunnery skill. Maybe if you had half a brain, you'd realize that there's a difference. Flying skill is the ability to maneuver your airplane (fighters require this, bombers do not. If you can't get that, then you're hopeless). Gunnery skill is the ability to estimate the correct point at which to shoot in order to hit a target.

I'm sick of you fruitcakes ignoring half of my post, taking my words out of context, and twisting them to fit your dishonest agendas. And Ack-Ack, you can kiss my double empennage.

Oldman731 · « **Reply #82 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:51:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 475FG Savlan
US gunners gave a remarkable account of themselves.

No matter how well-meaning, the account was mostly in their minds. Post-war review of enemy aircraft losses showed that the bomber gunners' claims were wildly exaggerated.

- oldman

Rich46yo · « **Reply #83 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:57:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Hey moron, learn to read. Re-read my post. I said no flying skill. I also expressely stated that it did take gunnery skill. Maybe if you had half a brain, you'd realize that there's a difference. Flying skill is the ability to maneuver your airplane (fighters require this, bombers do not. If you can't get that, then you're hopeless). Gunnery skill is the ability to estimate the correct point at which to shoot in order to hit a target.

I'm sick of you fruitcakes ignoring half of my post, taking my words out of context, and twisting them to fit your dishonest agendas. And Ack-Ack, you can kiss my double empennage.

Your a fool boy. just an all around fool. And now joining some other "all around fools" on my ignore list.

What makes a "fool"? Its a fool who resorts to name calling in a thread. Frankly im a little surprised AH tolerates so many like this boy.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #84 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:58:32 PM »

This place has an ignore list? Yes!! This has made my day. Bye-bye, idiot who can't comprehend simple definitions.

1Boner · « **Reply #85 on:** August 23, 2007, 03:38:59 PM »

Hey moron, learn to read. Re-read my post. I said no flying skill. I also expressely stated that it did take gunnery skill. Maybe if you had half a brain, you'd realize that there's a difference. Flying skill is the ability to maneuver your airplane (fighters require this, bombers do not. If you can't get that, then you're hopeless). Gunnery skill is the ability to estimate the correct point at which to shoot in order to hit a target.

I'm sick of you fruitcakes ignoring half of my post, taking my words out of context, and twisting them to fit your dishonest agendas. And Ack-Ack, you can kiss my double empennage.

__________________
Flying online as "Benny,"
Benny Moore

You don,t even fly in the MA arenas do you.

I didn,t think you did.

Anyone who does, knows the difficulties of defending bombers.

Still absolutley amazed,

Boner

SASMOX · « **Reply #86 on:** August 23, 2007, 03:54:18 PM »

"Pearl of the sky" would be a greate addition to plane set.

Lusche · « **Reply #87 on:** August 23, 2007, 04:21:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Benny Moore
You're quite wrong. If both players are equally skilled gunners, then there's nothing the fighter pilot can do. The bomber has several times the fighter's firepower, and it can fire regardless of either aircraft's orientation. The fighter can only fire when it is facing the bomber, and the bomber can return fire at this time (with more firepower, remember). Now when the fighter stops facing the bomber (when he dives past the bomber, for instance), the bomber still gets to fire at him, and now the fighter can't fire back.

(...)
You don't manuever in a bomber; you fly pretty much straight and level and gun the other guy down, and no maneuver he does will save him.

I call BS... completely BS.

There are many ways to give a buff gunner a hard time hitting the fighter. Your little description is only valid for the 6oclock attackers, who fly straight and level after the attack.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #88 on:** August 23, 2007, 04:42:01 PM »

That's not true. I attack bombers from directly above, leading them properly so that I don't lag onto their tails. I attack from above, make one high-speed pass, and dive away. It's the proper recommended attack (although, interestingly, a lot of real life pilots chose the dead six attack, even aces). The other way I attack bombers is the frontal pass, going for the cockpit shot. This is also proper tactics.

The cold, hard fact is that any time you are shooting at the bomber, he can shoot back—and he has far more firepower. As if that weren't enough, he can also shoot at you when you are no longer facing him. And with perhaps a dozen guns on you, he's going to hit you if he's any good at bomber gunnery.

The only time it's an even fight is if the fighter has thirty millimeter cannons. And even then, it's the same as a head-on pass (only the bomber can keep firing at you even after you no longer can). No flying skill, just gunnery.

Lusche · « **Reply #89 on:** August 23, 2007, 04:51:57 PM »

The "cold hard fact is": If you do high speed slashing attacks on a bomber, the buff gunner has more trouble hitting the fighter than vice versa. He has 3 different angles to track, and each of them is changing rapidly.
Also he can't always use all of his firepower, which is further reduced by having a fixed 600yds convergence. Only very good buff gunners do have a better chance of success, and they are quite rare in this game.

Also don't just dive straight away after the bomber...