Can't fix stupid

[WaRLoCkL]

But when u read the original Post a couple times. I guess what Rino was trying to say is that he got pounced on by people saying he was just trying to get the freindly to go where he wanted him to. I am sure Rino was trying to help the guy, but a PM msg probly would have been better for the situation, and maybe offer to show the guy some new stuff.

But heck I guess after all the ranting I have to agree with what he originally said and that u cant cure stupid and maybe he was flying around a bunch of tards who fly their planes like cardboard boxes.

I had to read the post a good 4 times to actually see he was talking more about the guys banter than he was the manuver.

[WaRLoCkL]

I am not backing off because of his experience. I still feel I could probly beat him in a 1 on 1;). You are right dedalos time spent playing means nothing. I own almost all the guys that helped teach me the game to begin with.

The fact is some people will never learn the game, they fly around like they are playing countrstrike trying to point aim and shoot. turn around go for another shot.

I do balive I came off to strong on that first post, and therefore I should apologize for that, and that I thought his post was saying a scissors wont work on a enemy on your six. But what he was really just doing is WHAAAAAA like u sad dedalos. Sometimes people do stuff so stupid in this game that we have to walk away from it for a few minutes or even come tell everyone about it on here to see who agrees with them;)

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
No I never said he was right. A scissor CAN and WILL work and is about the Only option with a faster bogey.

WRONG!

[Vudak]

I get what you're saying, Dedalos, but...  You know, I'd believe YOU would have a decent chance of judging the E-states, situation, etc., to know what the immediate deal was, and I think Phan would too.

I think what Phan's basic gripe here was one that we probably all have.  You go down, blowing your E to try and help a guy, and then he does something that completely blows any chance you had at clearing him.

It's kinda like when someone's dragging a bunch of cons, sees you coming in, and then lazily turns INTO you.  If he had the E to make that turn and stay fast enough to stay alive, he could have just kept going straight too, but, he didn't, and now the shot you were setting up has to be scrapped, and you have to move on to Plan B.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Vudak
I get what you're saying, Dedalos, but...  You know, I'd believe YOU would have a decent chance of judging the E-states, situation, etc., to know what the immediate deal was, and I think Phan would too.

I think what Phan's basic gripe here was one that we probably all have.  You go down, blowing your E to try and help a guy, and then he does something that completely blows any chance you had at clearing him.

It's kinda like when someone's dragging a bunch of cons, sees you coming in, and then lazily turns INTO you.  If he had the E to make that turn and stay fast enough to stay alive, he could have just kept going straight too, but, he didn't, and now the shot you were setting up has to be scrapped, and you have to move on to Plan B.

I agree with that.  Sometimes though when I get a six I may just break first look after.  Not to mention that I don't know if someone is coming to help.  Sometimes, I already know the guy is there and I have a plan.  The guy asking me to go right or up is not going to be happy with me.  Flat skizers not the best maybe, but it does work.  Especially in a 190.  It really depends on the situation.  You cannot make a statement that that does not work.  Sometimes it is the best move and sometimes the worst.

[SlapShot]

After reading the various posts and Rino's original post, I never interpreted that Rino was in the position of "trying" to clear someone's 6 ... but now that I think about it, that is probably what he was alluding to ... a little more detail as to what transpired would have been good.

Also, if someone is already into a flat scissors ... it is far to late for them to straighten out so that you can get a clean shot on the bad guy. If he were to straighten out ... he would be killed instantly.

Rino is right tho ... you can't fix stupid ... just not sure this is a good example considering the lack of details in this scenario.

[MotorOil1]

Ya, I love it when I have a guy on my 6 @ D200-400 and you get some friendly trying to tell you not to turn that way or you should hold them  straight just little longer.  

What would be more useful is if the friendlies tell ya, break left, break right.  Even then with a guy D200 on your six you're not worried about setting up a friendly for the kill, you're moving for your life because you only have a few seconds to pull a magical manoeuvre off or die.

It's like the guys calling out, "High B24" when everyone is at 3k or someone on range says low La7.  WTF?  A location reference added to that statement would be useful.  

[Rino]

Details, Details.....

      Enemy was a La-7 with a good deal of smash, but not smoking at 2k or
so closing medium fast on 3-4 friendlies vainly chasing an F4U.

      I was 1,000 back in a typhoon closing slowly...checked six when bad guy
was approx 1.5-1.8K behind the friendlies.  He picked one friendly single engine
type..no idea of plane type who then went into panic mode and immediately
started scissoring back and forth in a flat scissors.

      In a tiffy, I have an excellent initial break due to the rudder authority but
limited turning ability sustained so I had to pull off the La-7 after the 2nd scissor.

      When I said I suggested that flat scissors was not the best move..that's exactly what I did.  I didn't pound on the guy, or even mention him by name.

       That's when the great unwashed herd started wailing about me not
wanting them to do evasives.  I tried twice to tell them that it wasn't all
evasives, just the large flat turns that were a poor choice.

       After getting more flak than I was prepared to deal with over it..I decided
that it was better to mind my own business and let em die.  Some lessons
need to be learned the hard way I guess.


      As for what would have been a better move..a skid, a barrel roll, even
rolling scissors or just one plain break turn would have been better there.
You can generate a miss easily without making huge horizontal course
changes that make it virtually impossible to do better than snapshoting as
the deflection angle grows.

      As for Warlock...who knows..maybe he could kill me with ease, plenty of
others can, no doubt.   But making statements like his without knowing the
skill level of your oppo might lead to some embarassment too.

P.S.  As to me arguing with the best sticks in the game....I've been flying
online in AW and AH since early 91.  If these guys were the best in the game,
HTC might as well port over to Xbox and get it over with.

[Sweet2th]

Originally posted by Rino
After warning a guy about bandit on six o'clock, I then watched him do
max G flat turning scissors to try to shake him.  I then suggested that a
scissors is not the best move if you want a clear.

     A small chorus of wouldbe fighter heroes wailed about me not wanting
them to do evasives.  After trying to explain that the scissors isn't the
only evasive move..I decided to give up.

     Some folks just ain't worth the effort.

So you mean to tell us all that flyin around in a Typhie with 4-20 MM cannons and you can't  clear someone???The frustration in your voice was very apparent.Upset cuz someone wouldn't hold still for you to shoot them.I can't count the number of times a bandit is moving in on my cartoon plane and some chump doesn't say a word about it, and i am not the only one this happenes to so by nature defensive manuvers is the best thing to do when your flying by yourself.I agree that starting those defensive manuvers from 1.5 out is not the best thing to do, more like at 400 -600 away, but what is worse here?  scissoring at 1.5 out because you don't know any better, or calling someone a name cuz they are uneducated in dragging targets???

LEARN how to shoot is the bottom line here.

[hubsonfire]

See Rule #2

[Sweet2th]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
See Rule #2

you got skuzzyfied in under 5 minutes on that 1.Are ya catching on yet????

[hubsonfire]

Now you're off topic, but I'll be the one to get nailed for it.

Look, my first post was sarcastic. The flat scissors is not the only evasive. For those of you freaking out, get a grip on yourselves.

When a friendly is trying to clear you, help him. Meet the guy halfway. Call out your turns, or ask if the guy clearing wants you to do something. Maybe he's coming in hot, and will overshoot a hard turn, so maybe he'll call dive right or whatever, and you work together. You don't just start screaming back at him when he tries to help.

Phan's a good guy, and you guys giving him grief for trying to help and being chastised for it should just close your heads.

[Rino]

Ok, I apologize for starting this.  Ordinarily I'm smart enough to cool
off before venting on the BBS.

      The funny part for me is that I wasn't cranked by the guy doing the
scissors..hey, take advice or not..up to you.  It was the 5-6 other clowns
assuming they knew what I was talking about and commenting on it.

       I have to admit that I don't go out of my way much anymore to help
new guys...but when I do offer advice, it's meant to help, not to bash.

[Rino]

Oh yeah..I want to thank Hub and NB for getting me my first "Skuzzy"
Been posting for 6 years and the first one I've had edited yet, friends like
you clowns

[NoBaddy]

PH...

I will except that fact that I am stupid (we've both known that for years ). However, I find it easier to help if the friendly does flat scissors in that situation. I simply follow the friendly and keep my speed up. By doing that, the enemy will eventually come into my gunsight...or break off. Either way, problem solved. Of course, this also assumes the guy knows how to fly a defensive scissor (for a lot of guys...this may be a BIG assumption).

Heck, it's still better than what most of them will do....turn as hard as they can, insuring that there is no way I will get a shot unless I dump E like crazy. As often as not, folks will drag the guy straight at me, insuring that my choices are head on or break off.

Oops, just read your post at the bottom of the thread. The best friends are old friends....glad I could help, bud.

hub...

You might wanna watch the "good guy" stuff with PH....his head expands easily.