Author Topic: Another Rights Post  (Read 1118 times)

Offline Charon

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2007, 05:12:00 PM »
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As I recall, there was only one source in the NJ terror cell that was broken up by the guy at Circuit City... but he's a hero.


Well, he actually had something solid to present.

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One of the suspects brought a video to Circuit City in January 2006 and asked that it be converted to DVD. The tape depicted 10 young men, including the six suspects, who were shooting assault weapons at a firing range in a militia-type style, while calling for a jihad and shouting "God is great" in Arabic.


I would say that might constitute probably cause. In this case there was no evidence beyond what she alone claimed to see, in something she was not directly involved with at the time that has proven (apparently) to be about as wrong as can be as confirmed by other board members including at least one LEO member.

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She got it wrong. There's no doubt. But at least she had the stones to do something about what she thought was going on.


She had the "stones" to panic about a classmate visiting a firearm related Web site, then be so panicked that she either totally misunderstood what he was stating or decided to embellish what she saw or didn't see. In the first case hysterical overaction jumps to mind, in the second case criminal misconduct jumps to mind, though it would certainly take some stones to pursue her political agenda in such a manner.

I don't think paranoia and hysteria support safety. The whole cried wolf thing.

Charon

Offline Charon

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 05:19:20 PM »
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When I was in college there was a group that went by the name of "Environmental Fundamentalist". They were extremely anti government, anti usa, and supported and justified at the time, the killing of US troops in Iraq. They were extremely vocal, and too be honest it scared me. The final straw was when the chairman of the group told me, "I think everyone of us has a person deep down inside of us that is willing to strap an IED to his chest and blow him self up".

At the time I was doing an internship with Connecticut's Department of Emergency Management and Homeland Security.

I alerted my boss about it, and proper action was taken.

Sure, my case is a lot more extreme...


That's kind of the point. Your case was a lot more extreme.

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That said, I also don't think it would be to bad for this girl to try and contact the guy she reported and tell him it's nothing personal, she thought she saw a threat and acted accordingly, and hope he understands.


Assuming she wasn't the anti-firearm version of you "Environmental Fundamentalists," and just decided to win one for the team.  And its not really about his hurt feelings or her fear of firearms, its about rights. Her fear should be based on at least some hard evidence before the police perform a search.

Charon
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 05:26:21 PM by Charon »

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 05:26:33 PM »
If the story, the way he told it, is actualy fact, then at the very least the so called evidence should have been checked out before contact with him.
It would have been all too easy to do.
Sad to say, but just about anyone can drop a dime on someone else and put them through much turmoil.
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Offline Warspawn

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 06:09:37 PM »
This guy's rights were violated so extremely it's not even funny.  Illegal search.  Imprisonment.

You know, if he'd been a person of a certain minority accused of having drugs in his bag, the Rev. Jackson and company would be throwing a fit right now.  Whoopie would be explaining how in that particular part of the country, carring around crack to school is normal, much like dogfighting in the south, and that it's not a big deal :rolleyes:
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Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 06:36:26 PM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
TEH SKY IS FALLING!!!


I'd be worried if I was living in the states, maybe you don't understand the depths a pee'd of chick will go too....

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2007, 06:51:09 PM »
Now if Santa Monica College is a government institution, then the US Constitution applies and constitutional rights against illegal search and seizure apply in this case.

If Santa Monica College is a private institution, then the student does not have these constitutional guarantees, the student institution agreement applies.

The Constitution limits government.  Ford Motor Company can prohibit guns on work premises by a matter of policy without constitutional restrictions.  The State of California cannot.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 07:00:25 PM »
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Originally posted by cav58d
whats udie


It is a "who" not a what.

Udie is a guy who used to post here.  Good guy actually, I've met him.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2007, 07:46:47 PM »
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If Santa Monica College is a private institution, then the student does not have these constitutional guarantees, the student institution agreement applies.


Then why the need for a judge to sign off on a warrant for the search? Skuzzy doesn't have to allow my first amendment rights on this bbs, but he can't have me arrested. He was searched by the police as part of the legal process under the threat of arrest and confinement.

Charon

Offline Holden McGroin

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2007, 10:59:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Charon
Then why the need for a judge to sign off on a warrant for the search? Skuzzy doesn't have to allow my first amendment rights on this bbs, but he can't have me arrested. He was searched by the police as part of the legal process under the threat of arrest and confinement.

Charon


At the bottom of their website it states, "Copyright © 2007 Santa Monica Community College District"

Santa Monica College is a governmental entity and is bound by the US  Constitution.

I said, "If Santa Monica College is a private institution, then..."

My explanation applies.
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Offline Leslie

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2007, 11:16:32 PM »
It does seem shady that a warrant was not produced.  Don't police officers carry pre-signed John Doe warrants for such cases where a warrant is needed on the scene?  I would not be satisfied with a telephone warrant (is there such a thing?), but one on paper that I could see and read if I was determined to make the police produce a warrant.  I'm not sure I understand why folks go to the trouble of postponing the inevitable far as a search warrant is concerned, but if it has to be then it should be readable.  You shouldn't have to take their word they have one.

I'm glad this fellow didn't get in trouble, but given the current way of things imo he was not very smart using a school computer to discuss firearms, particularly in a gun hostile state.  I hope he wrote every word after thinking about it and how it could possibly be construed.  It's sometimes hard to convey meaning on forums without being misunderstood.  Heck yes you can get in trouble, and believe it or not, writing on a computer forum is serious business.  At least the police were nice about it.  Were these campus police, or campus and city police in conjunction?



Les

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2007, 11:35:10 AM »
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Originally posted by Charon
Then why the need for a judge to sign off on a warrant for the search? Skuzzy doesn't have to allow my first amendment rights on this bbs, but he can't have me arrested. He was searched by the police as part of the legal process under the threat of arrest and confinement.

Charon


That's not true either. If you make a post advocating terrorism, recruiting for same and so on, skuzzy could forward the posts to the feds along with your IP info. While skuzzy wouldn't be the one investigating or arresting you, any more than the reporting person in your story was, you could be investigated, have a warrant served etc. on you during the investigation. The warrant has to be sworn out from a judge who issues it.

Leslie,

You really have no clue about warrants. No Police do NOT carry copies of a "john doe" warrant with them. A warrant has to be specific as to what is being sought, what is being searched and the time to do so. Telephonic warrants are used often in cases of an exigent nature where time is a critical factor and or court business hours are over. There will be a designated magistrate to call each day / night for that purpose. That magistrate has to confirm the request for the warrant and file papers indicating it as well as sign the document later.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 05:47:31 AM »
Mav, just offhand, what would you say the percentage estimate was for approval on the telephonic warrants?
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Offline Charon

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 09:20:57 AM »
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That's not true either. If you make a post advocating terrorism, recruiting for same and so on, skuzzy could forward the posts to the feds along with your IP info. While skuzzy wouldn't be the one investigating or arresting you, any more than the reporting person in your story was, you could be investigated, have a warrant served etc. on you during the investigation. The warrant has to be sworn out from a judge who issues it.


True. But if I understand correctly from the Circuit City thread there is not a lot HTC personnel could do about it personally. To infringe my rights I would have to have signed away those rights or be dealing formally with the legal justice system and warrants, etc. I know when you live in a dorm you sign away rights to searches etc. on their property and in some jobs you consent to searches and other infringements as part of your employment contract. But, don't those infringements have to be specified and agreed to before hand?

Charon

Offline Maverick

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2007, 12:12:41 PM »
Charon,

You are starting to get into the realm of "what if" here. It's hard if not impossible to answer what you have posed as it is simply too general. You need to get more specific in the circumstances.

As far as a school is concerned, or work place either for that matter. You do NOT have full 4th amendment rights. You are not in a residential property agreement with the owner. In other words it's not your place, it's the schools or employers place and they have the right to consent to a search or the property including your locker, desk, cubical, company owned equipment and so on. If it is not specifically your person (and the Police can search you for weapons even there) or obviously private papers like your wallet,  it's available for search. If the property owner has it noted that all bags etc. are subject to search on their property you have a choice, comply, leave your bags etc. home or be denied entry on the grounds.

You also do not have 1st amendment rights on property that is not public (owned by the "people") or belongs to another entity, be it individual or corporate. If you sound off and the "speech" is not approved of by the property owner you can be removed from it provided you do not have a lease agreement for the property. Property and lessee / lessor situations depend on the agreement and conditions for the use. Residential vs other uses. To get into that area you really need to talk to an attorney and again be in a specific situation rather than "what if".

In a situation like this bbs, you have No rights. It's not your server or service. You are a "guest" here and your presence and posting privileges can be revoked without cause or recourse save the pity of the folks who moderate it. Ask beetle.

As far as "signing your rights away" is concerned, don't think it has to be a signed contract in all cases. The above examples are not necessarily ones where the person signed any document releasing anything. If you do not "own" the rights in those locations to begin with you can't be able  to "sign them away".


Jackal1,

Given the importance of getting a good warrant, one that will survive court scrutiny later on, I'd say that the percentage is pretty darn high. I don't know if anyone really keeps any stats on it however. If the judge does not feel there is sufficient reason to issue the warrant there won't be paperwork on it.

Any warrant and ANYTHING found in the execution of the warrant are subject to court scrutiny. If the warrant is lost in court, EVERYTHING found using it is gone as well. That's enough justification to make sure you have your ducks in a row before trying to get one. If you gain evidence to convict in a warrant but the execution or warrant was flawed, the evidence goes away. The warrant has to be specific as to what is being searched and to a lesser degree what is being sought. In other words, if you are searching for a stolen car in a garage, you can't search the bedroom closet or dressers of the house on the property.




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Originally posted by Charon
True. But if I understand correctly from the Circuit City thread there is not a lot HTC personnel could do about it personally. To infringe my rights I would have to have signed away those rights or be dealing formally with the legal justice system and warrants, etc. I know when you live in a dorm you sign away rights to searches etc. on their property and in some jobs you consent to searches and other infringements as part of your employment contract. But, don't those infringements have to be specified and agreed to before hand?

Charon
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Offline Charon

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Another Rights Post
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2007, 02:11:28 PM »
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As far as a school is concerned, or work place either for that matter. You do NOT have full 4th amendment rights. You are not in a residential property agreement with the owner. In other words it's not your place, it's the schools or employers place and they have the right to consent to a search or the property including your locker, desk, cubical, company owned equipment and so on. If it is not specifically your person (and the Police can search you for weapons even there) or obviously private papers like your wallet, it's available for search. If the property owner has it noted that all bags etc. are subject to search on their property you have a choice, comply, leave your bags etc. home or be denied entry on the grounds.

You also do not have 1st amendment rights on property that is not public (owned by the "people") or belongs to another entity, be it individual or corporate. If you sound off and the "speech" is not approved of by the property owner you can be removed from it provided you do not have a lease agreement for the property. Property and lessee / lessor situations depend on the agreement and conditions for the use. Residential vs other uses. To get into that area you really need to talk to an attorney and again be in a specific situation rather than "what if".

In a situation like this bbs, you have No rights. It's not your server or service. You are a "guest" here and your presence and posting privileges can be revoked without cause or recourse save the pity of the folks who moderate it. Ask beetle.

As far as "signing your rights away" is concerned, don't think it has to be a signed contract in all cases. The above examples are not necessarily ones where the person signed any document releasing anything. If you do not "own" the rights in those locations to begin with you can't be able to "sign them away".


I must not be doing a good job of expressing my point, because the bolded part is exactly what I'm saying. If I am on public or private property, unless I waive those rights they remain. They can look through their desk drawers and company vehicles, etc. There are obviously plenty of vocations involving national security concerns and money (casino staff) or valuable commodities like diamonds where you do waive those rights to be searched. But without that, and with my person or wallet etc. a valid warrant is required, as I understand it, hopefully (but I am realistic here) based on some higher standard of probably cause.

Charon