Author Topic: What's more important to the AvA  (Read 3019 times)

Offline 2bighorn

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2007, 03:40:44 PM »
Why are some so stuck on that strategy and historical play? That only makes sense if you have numbers. Planning for 100s of participants is silly.

AvA numbers are low. How can you run all those 'missions' with 4-5 players? Makes no sense.

Fix AvA in the way it'll accommodate LOW numbers. Forget the fancy stuff.

If it ever gets more popular, go to next step and enhance the setups with strats and stuff if needed.

Offline CAV

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2007, 08:22:13 PM »
Quote
b) Gameplay that is based on historical match-ups that enhance the style of play outside of the main arenas. Meaning, you enjoy the arena that offers Main Arena gamplay but based on historical World War II settings and periods.


B for me. Something along the lines of the old "Warbirds" WW2 arenas.

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Offline Trukk

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2007, 05:33:59 AM »
Why are some so stuck on that strategy and historical play?
That's sorta a big part of the reason to fly historical aircraft.  AH has enough furball arenas, it'd be nice to have one with a different focus.

That only makes sense if you have numbers. Planning for 100s of participants is silly.
No, you can fly fun realistic missions with much as little as 24 guys (even less actually).

AvA numbers are low.
Yeah, because the current setup does not offer much more than the other arenas.

What's there to lose trying something different?

Offline 2bighorn

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2007, 11:24:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Trukk
That's sorta a big part of the reason to fly historical aircraft.  AH has enough furball arenas, it'd be nice to have one with a different focus.
CT is coming out soon.

Quote
Originally posted by Trukk
No, you can fly fun realistic missions with much as little as 24 guys (even less actually).
What about opposition? What happens to air to air combat?
Realistically, if you run mission to hit ground target you wanna come in quickly, undetected, hit the target and haul yourself out before enemy's fighters can scramble.
Doesn't sounds like much fun for anybody but those few in the mission.

Quote
Originally posted by Trukk
Yeah, because the current setup does not offer much more than the other arenas.
And how would emphasis on strategy play bring in something what isn't already in other arenas?

I think it's not so much in setup (apart from few little things) but change in the mentality what AvA really needs.

Quote
Originally posted by Trukk
What's there to lose trying something different?
Nothing. There's just difference in opinion what 'something different' might be.

Offline toonces3

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Re: don't bother with scenario's
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2007, 12:59:04 PM »
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Originally posted by XAKL
I've brought this up before, so I'll bring it up again.  I envision Axis Vs Allies as complete usage of all the planes, vehicles, and Fleet.   For example, British and Americans = Rooks, Germans, Japan=Knits, and the Russians and Italians=bish.   The Russians and Italians both switched alliances during the war, so in this set up they can either play with the allies or against them.

We can even use one of the MA maps.  Large Fields can hold all airplanes and vehicles, Medium Fields can hold Medium bombers and all airplanes, Small AirField- single engined bombers, and only early and mid-war airplanes, VH- no bombers and early fighters only.

 


There's alot of merit to this idea.
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Offline bkwolf

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2007, 10:42:45 PM »
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B for me. Something along the lines of the old "Warbirds" WW2 arenas.    Cavalry

Yeah with strats and a rps from early to late,how about adjust the downtime to the number of players at a given time(more players= less downtime)
..just a thought
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Offline trap2000

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2007, 03:30:47 PM »
Originally posted by Cav
Quote
Something along the lines of the old "Warbirds" WW2 arenas.

As an old WWII arena flyer I have to say you're right on. Start with a “main arena” format then substitute historical terrain, theatre specific plane sets with an RPS, reduced icons, more realistic radar settings and field capture tied to a moving “front”. For example: Base capture would be by GV only and an enemy base could only be captured if it was bordered by at least one friendly base. Targets behind the lines could be bombed and their damage or closure would impact efforts at the front. Down times for bases in rear areas would be shorter than for front line bases. A TOD would last two weeks. For this to work the arena reset issue would have to be addressed. Frankly, I’m surprised HTC would go live with an arena that has this type of bug in the first place. In some respects we are very close to this set up right now, but yet in others, so far away.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2007, 10:18:16 PM »
As a former (hopefully not forever) participant and a short time CT staff type, I always imagined it to be a weekly 24/7 event (a battle where players could both immerse in an enviroment that's more akin to participating in a virtual persona of a WWII pilot and a tactical/strategy game where they can effect changes on the map and complete goals to win the battle).

What was the question again? :D

Offline dedalos

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2007, 09:19:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by trap2000
Originally posted by Cav

As an old WWII arena flyer I have to say you're right on. Start with a “main arena” format then substitute historical terrain, theatre specific plane sets with an RPS, reduced icons, more realistic radar settings and field capture tied to a moving “front”. For example: Base capture would be by GV only and an enemy base could only be captured if it was bordered by at least one friendly base. Targets behind the lines could be bombed and their damage or closure would impact efforts at the front. Down times for bases in rear areas would be shorter than for front line bases. A TOD would last two weeks. For this to work the arena reset issue would have to be addressed. Frankly, I’m surprised HTC would go live with an arena that has this type of bug in the first place. In some respects we are very close to this set up right now, but yet in others, so far away.


Finally some ideas that don't try to eliminate game play but enhance it or make it different.  I don't know how hard or easy that would be or if it conflicts with TOD that will be here in 2 weeks, but it is a good idea :aok
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2007, 02:24:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
a) Historical match-ups that do not take into account the Main Arena style gameplay. Meaning, you don't care about field captures - it's all about World War II.

b) Gameplay that is based on historical match-ups that enhance the style of play outside of the main arenas.  Meaning, you enjoy the arena that offers Main Arena gamplay but based on historical World War II settings and periods.

Please discuss.



Clearly the first alternative.

What I'd love to see is one AvA arena for Europe US/GE/SU and one for the Pacific US/JP. Rotating maps is fine, it's a good thing, but continually changing between the PTO and ETO is bad since squads who prefer either JP, SU or GE iron are forced back into the MA to fly their preferred rides and so the arena dies.

With a ETO arena GE squads can go there on a regular basis. I'm a member of one of these squads and clearly feel the lack of a historical European arena.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 02:29:57 PM by 33Vortex »

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Offline trap2000

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2007, 04:01:03 PM »
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Quote
a) Historical match-ups that do not take into account the Main Arena style gameplay. Meaning, you don't care about field captures - it's all about World War II.

b) Gameplay that is based on historical match-ups that enhance the style of play outside of the main arenas. Meaning, you enjoy the arena that offers Main Arena gamplay but based on historical World War II settings and periods.


Definately b. On a strategic and tactical level (which AH simulates) capturing fields, towns, ports, etc. was what World War II was all about and should drive game play in a historical arena. Labeling this type of game play "main arena style" doesn't make sense. What seperates the two are an Axis/Allied split, historical terrains, limited plane sets, more realistic icon, radar and other arena settings. These are the hallmarks of a World War II style arena and are what make it much more challenging than the main. The fact that the main mirrors the concept of field capture means little in the overall scheme of things. Typically a noobie starts in the main with its' easier arena settings and unlimited plane set. When (and if) he decides to transition into the next level of game play he moves over to the historical arena.

Offline KONG1

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2007, 04:22:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by trap2000
On a strategic and tactical level (which AH simulates) capturing fields, towns, ports, etc. was what World War II was all about and should drive game play in a historical arena.


Your right, just got through reading a story from WWII. It was about 2 guys who flew a Spitfire and a C-47 behind enemy lines and single handedly captured an entire base. The Germans couldn't get it back because one of them was smart enough to hide in a little mound of dirt on the base, and the other guy teleported to a  nearby base and in 5 minutes destroyed every bomb they had.
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Offline 33Vortex

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2007, 04:27:40 PM »
WW2 was all about the soldier on the ground, it was he who did all the dirty work and died in droves. The air war was about controlling the skies over the battlefield in order to bomb the poor sods on the ground. If you make the low populated AvA arena into a landgrab you can be sure that will be exploited during the low hrs. Some people will spend a few hrs alone on one side and completely ruin the map for the next day. I've seen it happen in another online flight sim.
From a historical perspective the air battles had a significant weight in deciding the outcome of the ground war, but the air war was not the deciding factor. To fly missions in support of ground troops yes, to gimp the whole arena by making bases capturable... no.

The kindergarten is in the MA ok, don't make AvA into that, please. Reserve the AvA for the people who want a little more realism and the immersion of flying a historical matchup. We don't need people crashing, bailing out or generally just doing the one-way trip, those people fly the MA.

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What's more important to the AvA
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2007, 09:02:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by KONG1
Your right, just got through reading a story from WWII. It was about 2 guys who flew a Spitfire and a C-47 behind enemy lines and single handedly captured an entire base. The Germans couldn't get it back because one of them was smart enough to hide in a little mound of dirt on the base, and the other guy teleported to a  nearby base and in 5 minutes destroyed every bomb they had.
:rofl

Offline sparow

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Coming back on this topic...
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2007, 05:09:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sparow

AvA maps should have few airfields available and operational.  All other airfields available for emergency landings, eventually rearming and refuelling, but no spawning. No enemy dot dar for countries that had no such tecnology, only sector Dar Bar. dot dar only available to countries that used the tecnology, at the time they started using it. Wind and cloud set up the closest possible to the historical conditions of the place and time event. Icon range reduced to minimum, about 2k or less. All aircraft topped up at 100% fuel by default. No Ch1 or Ch200 enabled in flight.
I would like to see the RPS in the maps and a sequential rotation of historical theatres of operations. If we set it by year, we would choose a close series of aerial battles in different TO's, sequentially, and the RPS would be natural...


To these ideas, I would add the many interesting ideas that came up from so many players like the moving front, long downtimes for field ack and no rebuild for buildings and ships. I would add also the need for greater numbers of troops needed for capture - between 40 and 100, depending on size of target and number of map rooms - and double, triple or quadruple towns to simulate large cities. I would give names to towns and bases and make trains ackless, too. Basically, destroying refineries, ammo factories, trains, trucks or barges would have some impact in the course of the battle!

After some thought, I realised that AvA could really be the best of two worlds...Not a scenario and not MA. But a place where Propnuts, GVers and Couch-Admirals could have fun, in a good historical environment...And the key is in the dinamic rotation of maps along WW2 timeline and in a new approach to AH: pre-defined objectives, and a Side scoring sistem.

To understand this think with me: we're not here for the score, right? But it's a game that revolves about organized military campaigns, right? So, why not decide that the objectives are the same that in the past? And that the resources are similar and try to reproduce each side's resources at the time? Why not give a Side 3 points for a victory, 1 point for a draw and 0 points for a defeat? We know this sistem, works fine. In the end of the "conflict" we would have Side A with 33 points, Side B with 10 points and the stats would read like this: Side A destroyed 333 aircrafts, 755 tanks, 55 ships, 999 AAA guns, 150 trains, 10 truck convoys, 5 supply barges, and lost 250 aircraft, 622 tanks, 10 ships, and so on...The same for the other side...

And AvA - read maps and setups - could even follow WW2 Timeline (forgive the gaps and possible mistakes, source was Wikipedia) to the day, like this example for 1942 (may send 1939, 40, 41, 43, 44 and 45 separately if you wish):

1942

January
2: Manila is captured by Japanese forces.
7: Siege of the Bataan Peninsula begins.
11: Japanese troops capture Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia; Japan declares war on the Netherlands and invades the Netherlands East Indies.
19: Japanese forces invade Burma.
23: The Battle of Rabaul begins.
25: Japanese troops invade the Solomon Islands.
31: The last organized Allied forces leave Malaya, ending the 54-day battle.
February
11: Operation Cerberus - Flotilla of Kriegsmarine ships dash from Brest through the English Channel to northern ports; British fail to sink any one of them
15: Singapore surrenders to Japanese forces.
19: Japanese warplanes attack Darwin, Australia;
27: Battle of the Java Sea begins; The USS Langley, the first United States aircraft carrier, is sunk by Japanese warplanes off Java.
28: Japanese land forces invade Java.
March
10: Fall of Rangoon.
April
3: Japanese forces begin an all-out assault on the United States and Filipino troops on the Bataan Peninsula. Bataan fell on April 9 and the Bataan Death March began.
5: The Japanese Navy attacks Colombo in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Royal Navy cruisers HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire are sunk southwest of the island.
9: The Japanese Navy launches air raid on Trincomalee in Ceylon (Sri Lanka); Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Hermes and Royal Australian Navy destroyer HMAS Vampire are sunk off the country's East Coast.
18: Doolittle Raid on Nagoya, Tokyo and Yokohama.
23: Beginning of so-called Baedeker Blitz on English provincial towns; attacks continue sporadically until June 6.
 May
4: The Battle of the Coral Sea starts.
5: British forces begin "Operation Ironclad": the invasion of Madagascar to keep the Vichy French territory from falling to a possible Japanese invasion.
6: On Corregidor, the last American forces in the Philippines surrender to the Japanese.
8: The Battle of the Coral Sea comes to an end. This is the first time in the naval history where two enemy fleets fought without seeing each other's fleets.
12: Second Battle of Kharkov - In the eastern Ukraine, the Soviet Army initiates a major offensive. During the battle the Soviets will capture the city of Kharkov from the German Army, only to be encircled and destroyed.
 June
4: The Battle of Midway;
7: Japanese forces invade the Aleutian Islands. This is the first invasion of American soil in 128 years.
21: Afrika Korps recaptures Tobruk.
28: Operation Blue, the German plan to capture Stalingrad and the Russian oil fields in the Caucasus, begins.
July
1: First Battle of El Alamein begins.
3: Guadalcanal falls to the Japanese.
21: Japanese establish beachhead on the north coast of New Guinea in the Buna-Gona area; small Australian force begins rearguard action on the Kokoda Track Campaign.
27: First Battle of El Alamein ends.
August
7: Operation Watchtower begins the Battle of Guadalcanal as American forces invade Gavutu, Guadalcanal, Tulagi and Tanambogo in the Solomon Islands.
15: Operation Pedestal arrives at the island fortress of Malta.
19: Operation Jubilee, a raid by British and Canadian forces on Dieppe, France, ends in disaster.
26: Battle of Milne Bay begins: Japanese forces launch full-scale assault on Australian base near the eastern tip of New Guinea.
 September
1: Stalingrad is now completely encircled by German forces.
3: Australian and U.S. forces defeat Japanese forces at Milne Bay, the first outright defeat for Japanese land forces during the Pacific War;
 October
11: Battle of Cape Esperance - On the northwest coast of Guadalcanal, United States Navy ships intercept and defeat a Japanese fleet on their way to reinforce troops on the island.
23: Second Battle of El Alamein begins with massive Allied bombardment of German positions.
November
1: Operation Supercharge, the Allied breakout at El Alamein, begins.
3: Second Battle of El Alamein ends - German forces under Erwin Rommel are forced to retreat during the night.
8: Operation Torch, the Allied invasion of Vichy-controlled Morocco and Algeria, begins;
12: Battle of Guadalcanal begins - A naval battle near Guadalcanal starts between Japanese and American forces.
13: British Eighth Army recaptures Tobruk; Battle of Guadalcanal - Aviators from the USS Enterprise sink the Japanese battleship Hiei.
15: Battle of Guadalcanal ends - Although the United States Navy suffered heavy losses, it was able to retain control of Guadalcanal.
19: Battle of Stalingrad - Soviet Union forces under General Georgy Zhukov launch the Operation Uranus counterattacks at Stalingrad, turning the tide of the battle in the USSR's favor.
22: Battle of Stalingrad - The situation for the German attackers of Stalingrad seems desperate during the Soviet counter-attack Operation Uranus and General Friedrich Paulus sends Adolf Hitler a telegram saying that the German 6th Army is surrounded.

Well, I would like to follow this plot, wouldn't you?

Cheers,

Sparrow
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