Author Topic: P-51B question.  (Read 1088 times)

Offline C(Sea)Bass

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P-51B question.
« on: September 14, 2007, 12:01:58 PM »
Is the P-51B modeled in the game the original type or the type upgraded for use with 160 grade fuel?

Offline Widewing

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Re: P-51B question.
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 02:47:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
Is the P-51B modeled in the game the original type or the type upgraded for use with 160 grade fuel?


P-51s were not "upgraded" for 150 octane fuel... Moreover, we don't have that fuel grade modeled. We have standard 67" Hg Mustangs (100-130 octane).

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

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P-51B question.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 03:18:02 PM »
Search this forum and you'll find plenty of threads on the 150 fuel topic both for Spits and 51s.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline C(Sea)Bass

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P-51B question.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 03:22:04 PM »
The increased performance obtained with 150 Grade Fuel was put to good use by Mustangs, Tempests and Spitfires in intercepting Buzz Bombs launched against Britain beginning mid June. Performance increases at sea level were as follows: 33


  130 Grade 150 Grade  
Spitfire IX 335 mph 358 mph   +25 lb  
Spitfire XIV 359 mph 366 mph   +21 lb  
Tempest V 372 mph 386 mph   +11 lb  
Mustang III (V-1650-3) 360 mph 390 mph   +25 lb  
 from:http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

in another article in the site it mentions minor upgrades need to allow for the increased horsepower, i.e. stronger mounting parts, extra bolts on the wings etc...

I was just wondering if the performance stats for the current P51, Spitfires, and Tempest were from the aircraft with 150 grade or a more common grade (which is what I would assume they did). Might be a little feature in the game to use higher grades of fuel for perkies, if that would not be too hard to code.

i tried to search the forum before I started the thread and got no results listed.Im guessing the previous times it came up were in  another forum or I didn't use the right key words.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:25:37 PM by C(Sea)Bass »

Offline Widewing

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P-51B question.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 03:32:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
Might be a little feature in the game to use higher grades of fuel for perkies, if that would not be too hard to code.


I agree. A 5 to 10 point perk for 150 Octane for ETO fighters would be a nice option. Coding that could be a challenge though....

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

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P-51B question.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 03:42:19 PM »
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Mike Williams

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P-51B question.
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 06:37:48 PM »
Guppy, there's some good info in that thread - and a lot of garbage.  Additional material has come to light since that time.

Here’s my summary from our Mustang Performance page that might be of interest (I've posted much the same here previously):

The Merlin engined P-51 went operational 1 December 1943 with the 354th Fighter Group based in Boxted UK.  By D-Day, seven 8th Air Force Groups would join them as well as seven RAF Squadrons.  In the MTO, the 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups exchanged their Spitfires for Mustangs in spring 1944.    The P-51B that equipped these units was delivered with the Packard Merlin V-1650-3 until April 1944, when replacement aircraft began to be delivered with the V-1650-7 engine featuring maximum power peaking at lower altitudes.  The P-51 operated on 100/130 grade fuel with War Emergency Power limited to 67" up to June 1944. On 29 March 1944 the Commanding General, Army Air Forces authorized the procurement of the necessary parts to modify all P-38, P-47 and P-51 airplanes in the United Kingdom for the use of Grade 150 fuel, subject to the relevant engines being cleared to use the fuel. (1)  (2)

During March & April 1944 flight tests were conducted at Wright Field on the P-51B-15 airplane, AAF No. 43-24777, using 44-1 fuel, at the request of the Power Plant Laboratory, Engineering Division. (3)  These tests were made to determine the performance of the airplane at the higher powers allowable with 44-1 fuel as compared with the performance at powers allowable for standard aviation fuel.   Parallel tests were conducted by Proving Ground Command at Eglin Field, Florida on P-51B airplanes, AAF Nos. 43-24755, 43-24757, and 43-24775.   The Power Plant Laboratory concluded in a 19 April 1944 memorandum report that the "Packard built Rolls-Royce V-1650-7 engine will satisfactorily comply with a 75 In. Hg manifold pressure war emergency rating with Grade 44-1 fuel".  (4)  As a result of the engine clearance and airplane trials the P-51-B airplane was cleared for operation at 75" Hg by late April.  (5)  The modifications required to the P-51 to use the 150 grade fuel were: modify manifold pressure regulator, modify supercharger volute drain valve, install new type induction center manifold extension gland seals, use of Lodge RS5/5 or KLG RC5/3 spark plugs, installation of bulged exhaust stacks, and reset supercharger aneroid switch. (6)  By June 1944, final release on Project P.P.F. had been made approving 75" manifold pressure for the P-51 (both the 1650-3 and 1650-7 engines), as well as increased powers for the P-38 and P-47.  (7)

Deliveries of Grade 100/150 aviation fuel to Eighth Air Force fighter airfields commenced in June 1944. (8)(9)(10)  This coincidentally occured about the same time as the introduction of the P-51D into service.   Even though the USAAF had cleared the P-51 for 75" Hg., the Eighth Air Force chose 72" Hg as the P-51's War Emergency Rating. (11)(12)  Apparently there is more to the story, however, as Encounter Reports demonstrate that 75" Hg was used operationally. (13)(14)

By January 1945, fourteen of the Eighth Air Force's fifteen Fighter Groups were operating Mustangs, the sole holdout being the 56th FG in P-47's.  Maintenance difficulties with spark plug fouling led to the decision to convert all fighter groups to 100/150 grade fuel reformulated with increased levels of ethylene dibromide (1.5T).  Deliveries of PEP, as the new 100/150 blend was called, began to be issued to all fighter groups in February 1945.  The use of PEP, however, cooroded the valve seats of the V-1650 at an unacceptable level.   Consequently,  the standard 100/150 (1T) grade fuel was reverted to by the end of March 1945. (15)(16)

 The Eighth Air Force also had hoped to supply the 352nd and 361st Fighter Groups based on the continent with 100/150 grade fuel.  This was deemed impractical from a logistical viewpoint, although admittedly such difficulties did not prevent the RAF's 2nd TAF from being supplied with 100/150 grade fuel.  (17)

Offline Mike Williams

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P-51B question.
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 06:48:29 PM »
Technical Operations, Eighth Air Force issued a 4 April 1945 Memorandum in which  100/150 grade fuel experience in the Eighth Air Force was summarized. It is reproduced in full below:

Quote
1. The following is a summary of 100/150 grade fuel experience in Eighth Air Force.

2.  a.   This fuel was first service tested by Technical Operations Section, this headquarters, in October 1943, said service test lasting through until March 1944, at which time it was recommended that if extra performance from P-38, P-47 and P-51 aircraft was desired it could be secured by the use of this fuel.  It was pointed out at that time that the only apparent deleterious effect of this fuel on any one of the three types was the extra lead fouling of spark plugs.

b.   A decision was made in May 1944 to have all fighter units supplied with this fuel no later than 1 June.  As of that date operations with this fuel continued until approximately 1 February 1945 when all fighter units switched to “Pep” (100/150 plus 1.5 T’s ethylene dibromide).  As of 1 April 1945 all units switched back to 100/150 fuel containing 1.0 T ethylene dibromide.

3.   At the time the 150 grade fuel was first used all three fighter types listed above were in operational use by this Air Force.  Shortly after June 1 P-38 units were re-equipped with P-51 type aircraft so that experience with 150 grade fuel in P-38 aircraft is limited.  Gradually, conversion of P-47 outfits to P-51’s took place during the Summer and Fall of 1944, and as of approximately 1 November only one P-47 group remained in this Air Force.

4.  Maintenance difficulties can be summarized as follows:

a.  P-38 (V-1710 Engine).

Spark plug leading was increased.  The extent of this leading was such that plug change was required after approximately 15 hours flying.  This conditions was aggravated considerably by low cruising powers used to and from target areas, while trying to get the maximum range possible.  It was found, however, that regular periods of high power running for a minute of two in most cases smoothed out any rough running engines unless the cause was other than leading.

b.  P-47 (R-2800 Engine).

Spark plug fouling was the only maintenance difficulty encountered during the period in which 150 grade fuel was used.  Spark plug life was reduced by about 50%, the same low power cruising as described above being the principle cause for the extra fouling.  No deleterious effects on diaphragms, fuel hose or any other rubber of synthetic rubber materials were noted.

c.  P-51 (V-1650 Engines).

  The same type of lead fouling as described in a and b above happened in the case of the P-51 except that is was probably more serious than in either of the other two types.  Using 130 grade fuel with 4½ cc. of lead, the average operational P-51 could last 5 missions (roughly 25 hours) before the fouling required plug change.  With 150 grade fuel containing 6 cc. of lead, 10 to 12 hours, or normally 2 missions, was the average length of time between spark plug changes or cleaning.  At various times in the six months of operation of P-51 aircraft on 150 grade fuel many other maintenance difficulties were attributed to the fuel, but final analysis proved that the only real effect of the fuel was the lead fouling.  Some units maintained that they had some deteriorations of seals, but this was not borne our throughout the command, nor was there any concrete evidence that it existed in the units.

 The excessive fouling of spark plugs usually exhibited itself in roughing up of engines after a couple of hours of low power cruising.  Periodic bursts of high power in most cases smoothed the engine out.  However, if the engine was allowed to go too long a period without being cleaned out, the accumulation of lead bromide globules successfully withstood any attempts to blow them out.  In some instances, long periods of idling while waiting for take-off and a failure to use high power on take off resulted in loss of power during take-off run and in some cases caused complete cutting out with subsequent belly landing.  The cases of cutting-out on take-off definitely attributed to excessive fouling were comparatively few, although numerous enough to list it as an effect of the extra lead.

As a result of several months operational use with the fuel, an SOP – designed to reduce power failures on take-off, leading troubles in flight, and other things which were causing early returns and abortive aircraft – was published.  This is inclosure no. 1.  Almost immediately after this section published this SOP practically all of the troubles then existing ceased, although it was necessary to change plugs after each two missions or thereabouts.

 In an effort to reduce the lead fouling, tests were conducted by this section with 150 grade fuel containing 1.5 T’s of ethylene dibromide.  A total of about 120 hours was run by this section and the three squadrons given the “Pep” fuel for accelerated service tests.  The results of these service tests showed a considerable reduction in lead fouling with no apparent effects otherwise.  As a result, all fighter units of the Air Force were put on Pep fuel late in January 1945.  About thirty days thereafter a sharp increase in valve trouble was experienced with the V-1650 engine.  Inspection of engines at overhaul revealed that the hydrobromic acid was eroding the silchrome valve seat inserts to such an extent that after approximately 100 hours of operation all the valve clearance was gone.  This 100-hours is the minimum life some engines going 170 to 180 hours before this condition prevailed.  There are no other deleterious effects of this fuel noted.  As of 1 April 1945 fighter units of the Air Force returned to the use of 100/150 grade fuel containing 1.0 T of ethylene dibromide. (18)



352nd FG Mustang being fueled with 150 Octane Gasoline

Those RAF Mustang units tasked with defending against the V-1 were modified to operated at +25 lbs./sq.in. - the equivalent of 80" Hg.(21) (22)  On 24 August 1944, by which time the V-1 threat had subsided, the Ministry of Aircraft Production directed Rolls Royce: "all Packard Merlin V.1650-7 engines to be modified to operate at 25 lbs. boost".(23) Raising the WER rating from 67" Hg to 80" Hg increased Sea Level speed by 30 mph. (24) On 18 September 1944 ADGB noted, that with respect to the Mustang III/Packard Merlin 1650-7, "A total of over 7,000 hours have been flown at a maximum boost pressure of + 25 lbs./sq. in.".  (25) The RAF's Mustang Pilot's Notes gives the Combat Engine Limitation as "81 ins. boost for 5 minutes when using 150 grade fuel".   (26)

Offline Mike Williams

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P-51B question.
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 06:59:28 PM »
1. CTI-1659: Modification of Fighter Aircraft for use of Grade 150 Fuel  Material Command, Technical Instructions, 29 March 1944.  
2. Project P.P.F.  4 April 1944
3. Flight Tests on the North American P-51B-15 Airplane, AAF No. 43-24777 Using 44-1 Fuel
4  75" Hg. clearance for V-1650-7   Material Command, Engineering Division, 19 April 1944.
5  Project PPF: P-51B airplanes are cleared for operation at 75", 29 April 1944
6  Instructions for Modification of P-51 Airplanes for Project PPF
7  Project P.P.F. - Installation and Operating Instructions, 20 June 1944
8  Grade 150 Aviation Fuel   Chief, Petroleum Section, 13 June 1943.
9  361st FG - 150 Octane Fuel delivered week ending 18 June 1944 .
10 359th FG - Engineering Report for June 1944  noting "change to one hundred fifty octane gasoline".
11 Grade 150 Aviation Fuel   Supply Division, 11 July 1944.
12  78th FG Engineering Report for December 1944  noting "boosts set to draw 72 inches" when Group converted to P-51s.
13  Capt. Charles E. Yeager, Encounter Report 6 November 1944, 357th FG
14  Lt. Col. Kyle L. Riddle, Encounter Report 24 December 1944, 479th FG
15  339th FG Aviation Fuel Report for February 1945
16  Grade 100/150 (1 ½ T) Fuel   Headquarters Air Technical Service Command in Europe, 28 March 1945.
17  Request for Grade 100/150 1.5 T Aviation Fuel for Eighth Air Force Units on the Continent   J.H Houghton, Dir. of Supply, 5 February 1945.
18  Use of 100/150 Grade Fuel by Eighth Air Force  Headquarters Eighth Air Force, Technical Operations, 4 April 1945.
19  TI-2010, Addendum 1: Power Plant Fuel (PPF) 100/150 Grade Fuel   Air Technical Service Command, Tech. Instr., 13 December 1944.
20  78th FG Supply Report for December 1944  noting "During the latter part of December they were shipped 820 barrels of 150 octane by rail".
21. No. 316 Polish Squadron Operations Record Book, 1 July 1944
22.  Technical Note No.Aero.1501(Flight)   Improvement of Performance of Fighter Aircraft Operating Against the German Flying Bomb
23.  Requisition MER/388/43
24.   Crossbow fighters, low level speed table
25.  Summary of Use of 150 Grade Fuel
26.  Mustang Pilot's Notes, Engine Data

Interesting chart from NAA of a P-51 B with perfomance obtained using 72" Hg. ;)

Encounter Reports recording high boost obtained with 150 grade fuel:

1st Lt. Raymond R. Flowers, 1 November 1944, 20th FG  "I closed steadily pulling over 70 inches."
1st Lt. James F. Hinchey, 14 November 1944, 353rd FG  "For fifteen minutes at 74” hg and indicating 600 mph…"
2nd Lt. Thomas R. Drybrough, 27 November 1944, 353rd FG  "I had been pulling over 70" H.G. and was indicating about 425 MPH at approximately 14,000 feet."
1st Lt. Charles E. Yeager, 13 September 1944, 357th FG  "I rolled over and was pulling around 70" Hg."
Capt. Charles E. Yeager, 6 November 1944, 357th FG  "I got behind him and was pulling 75” Hg."
Lt. Col. Roy A. Webb, 25 June 1944, 361st FG  "I closed very slowly and pulled as much as 70 inches of mercury."
1st Lt. Thomas H. Hall, 15 August 1944, 364th FG  "I put on 70 inches and gradually pulled up on them."
Lt. Col. Kyle L. Riddle, 24 December 1944, 479th FG  "I pulled about 70" to 75" mercury..."



67" Hg. WEP limitation for the P-51 was superseded by 72-75" Hg as the standard P-51 WEP 5 minute engine limitation in the 8th AF from June 1944 to War's end.  Frankly, I wonder to what extent if any the P-51D used 67" as the WEP limitation in the ETO considering it arrived onto the scene at the same time as the conversion to 150 grade fuel (the two 9th P-51 AF groups excepted).