Author Topic: the price of milk  (Read 1072 times)

Offline C(Sea)Bass

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the price of milk
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2007, 11:28:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
lay off the skim milk...

butt its yummy.

Offline Sixpence

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the price of milk
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2007, 12:04:57 AM »
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Originally posted by C(dum)Bass
its says page 2 but there is nothing here? wtf?


hit refresh
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Offline rpm

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the price of milk
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2007, 12:16:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
butt its yummy.
Butt yummy?:eek:
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Offline C(Sea)Bass

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the price of milk
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2007, 01:29:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Butt yummy?:eek:


how would you know?:noid :t :O :furious :rofl :aok :huh :cry :lol

Offline AWMac

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the price of milk
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2007, 06:25:05 AM »
Just don't touch the Junction Grass cuz that's how we determine a cars speed near here.

"I swear Officer I wasn't going any more than 60 MPH as to how far that Junction Grass was bowed down."

Works in Court!

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Offline Maverick

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the price of milk
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2007, 10:38:06 AM »
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Originally posted by rpm
No, I said they SHOULD be using switchgrass instead of corn. It gives over 1000 gallons of ethanol per acre. Corn gives 328 gpa. Cattle do not eat switchgrass for feed. Humans do not eat switchgrass. Archer-Daniels-Midland does not control the switchgrass market. Switchgrass has no lobbyists in Washington.
You do the math.


So no one controls the market, yet your source for ethanol isn't being used. Could it be that perhaps your opinion regarding it might not be correct or believed by those in agriculture? Even if they did switch you still have the amount of arable land for production of each item and limited means of producing it. Basic economics states that producers will provide that which is most profitable for them to provide. They already have the equipment, land and seed for corn. Who has the materials and ethanol production equipment for grass? Who will buy the grass for ethanol? Is anyone buying it now?

As soon as you start to divert agricultural resources from food and silage production the price of food and anything related to it will go up. That has already been demonstrated to be true. It's not just the price of milk or popcorn going up it's everything that has anything to do with corn or corn products. It has a ripple effect that spreads outward and we are seeing it now.
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Offline Gunslinger

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the price of milk
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2007, 10:52:10 AM »
it's scary to think that just about everything has "high fructose corn syrup" in it.

Offline rpm

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the price of milk
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2007, 12:05:40 PM »
Mav, it's not just my opinion. It's fact.
link
Ethanol as a fuel is nothing new. Dan Sperling, a professor at the University of California at Davis and director of its Institute of Transportation Studies, noted that even early Model T Fords used ethanol, and it's an ingredient in beer and wine.

Most ethanol produced in America is made from corn -- a less-efficient material than switchgrass -- but corn producers are supported by a large lobby and huge government subsidies. There is no similar lobby or investment for grass or wood.

"When you make ethanol from corn, for every gallon of fuel you get, you put in about seven-tenths of a gallon of fossil energy, oil or natural gas," he said. "That's only a small improvement in terms of greenhouse gases."

On the other hand, he said, "ethanol from cellulose [like switchgrass] is a great energy strategy because for every gallon of ethanol, a tiny amount of fossil material [is used.] There's a dramatic reduction in greenhouse gases, so from an energy perspective it's far superior."

"We've known this for a long time," Sperling said. "Why has nothing happened? Part of it is we do need more R and D [research and development], but I think what we really need is a commitment on the industry and business side to invest."
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Offline Holden McGroin

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the price of milk
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2007, 01:39:20 PM »
Take heart RPM...  Your and President Bush's dreams are beginning to take root.

Quote
source
This month, (Feb 2007) Celunol, based in Cambridge, MA, broke ground on an ethanol plant in Louisiana that will be able to produce 1.4 million gallons of the fuel (Cellulosic ethanol) each year starting in 2008. Other companies are moving forward as well with plans to build plants.


must be a personal quandry to agree with GW though
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Offline Fulmar

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the price of milk
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2007, 01:50:28 PM »
Since I'm from the 'real' dairy state, I can tell you about the mass number dairy farmers who have sold they cows because of low milk prices the last 15 years.  But this is just one of the many factors that hurt the individual farms vs corporate farms.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2007, 02:17:55 PM »
RPM,

The fact is that the ethanol is being made from corn. That is causing the price of everything related to corn to rise.

The grass situation might be just dandy, on paper, but the reality is that it's corn being used.

A second reality is that there is no way that ethanol can replace oil for transportation uses.

We need a seperate solution, not a stop gap.
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Offline E25280

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the price of milk
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2007, 07:29:50 PM »
RPM, you are missing a couple of important facts.  The captial expenditure for making a cellulose based fermentation system is more than making a sugar based fermentation system.  For those companies trying to take advantage of the current political/social/economic environment, it makes more financial sense to build a more traditional sugar fermentation-based system.  As corn syrup / sugar prices continue to rise, this will eventually change, but in the meantime all the related economics suffer.

Second, the cellulose based fermentation systems that are being built are using corn cellulose since it is an existing by-product of established agricultural infrastructure.  That is, we already have corn cellulose as a waste product of corn starch / corn sugar production.  There is no "switchgrass agricultural infratructure."  To take advantage of switchgrass, you need to create the infrastructure first.  So, again, for those trying to make a quick buck before this particular bubble bursts, it makes more economic sense to use corn cellulose in these new cellulose plants.

I agree that the switchgrass option looks very attractive from an environmental standpoint.  But the current economics don't make it an attractive option, with or without government meddling.  I do agree, however, that the more meddling government does, the more likely it is for the process to be slowed down.
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Offline Donzo

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the price of milk
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2007, 07:45:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280

Second, the cellulose based fermentation systems that are being built are using corn cellulose since it is an existing by-product of established agricultural infrastructure.  That is, we already have corn cellulose as a waste product of corn starch / corn sugar production.  


There's the answer right there.  Let corn be corn (to make corn starch, corn sugar, corn for feed, etc) and use the waste product of corn production in the cellulose based fermentation systems.

The point being that we should not be tripping over ourselves making ethanol from corn alone.  Doing so affects the price of too many things that depend on corn itself, not to mention the ethanol yield from corn.

It seems to me that they could come up with a fermentation system that works with any cellulose product.  This way the waste from corn production along with switchgrass or whatever could be used.  Switchgrass could be grown on tracts of land that would otherwise be considered undesireable for other crops and it is not "needed" by other things (for feed, in food, etc.)

Offline RedTop

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the price of milk
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2007, 08:14:07 PM »
<---doesnt drink milk.
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Offline rpm

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« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2007, 10:23:13 PM »
Mav, I totally agree we need a different fuel source. Unfortunately that is way down the road. Cellulose methanol is a stop-gap. But, doesn't it make sense to make methanol from the most effective (and least intrusive) crop available?

Methanol will never totally replace gasoline, but every gallon of methanol is one less gallon of gasoline. If we could get up to 20-30% methanol usage it would help stretch what resources we have. Or, we could just continue to suckle at the Exxon/Mobil teat and ignore alternate energy sources completely.

BTW, I have no problems agreeing with Bush. It just does'nt happen very often.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.