Which ETO/MTO-based FGs flew P-38L?

[oboe]

I was surprised to see still empty skin slots for the P-38L.    Got any good skin suggestions in addition to the 82nd FG P-38L "Paddy"?  

Anybody have other, more detailed images of this 82nd FG '38?


Still looking for subjects...

[Guppy35]

14th and 1st also had Ls.

That painting is confusing as I've never seen that paint job anywhere.  If it's 82nd, at least the spinners would have been MTO red.

And having just found a photo of CH-H in Kenn Rust's book on the 15th AF, I know it's wrong.

Black tail and black on the radiators.  Black FL's stripe on the boom.  Not even sure it's got a checked nose.

I'll see what I can find on 1st L models.

[Hoarach]

Odd because Ive seen that painting on numerous occasions.

I really want that skin though......

[Guppy35]

Trouble is, the 96th FS, 82nd FG tail colors were black.  Color photos are there to back it up.  And obviously the black and white photo posted shows the black with white lettering.  No way that's yellow with black lettering.  Standard practice was for the nose in front of the gun bays to be red with the red MTO spinners.

Edited to add this.  Did it quick, but THIS is how that 38 should look.  And the color markings are only on the outside of the rudders and radiators, not inside the tail.




Oboe,  do you have 38 aces of the ETO/MTO?

There are a number of J-25s shown, which are essentially L-1s as they have all the upgrades including the leading edge landing light and dive flaps.  They are far more appropriate fof the AH L model then the early J.

367th FG, 370th, and a 429th FS, 474th FG bird are profiled in it.

Here's a nice photo of a 94th FS, 1st FG P38L-1.  Yellow bands on tail and wing tips outlined in black.  Black and yellow on the nose.  Apparently the red paint for the MTO spinners hasn't been added yet.  If I was doing it, I'd go with the red spinners as all the other photos I can find of 1st FG birds at that time show the red.  I'm sure it got them eventually and adds a flash of color to it.

[Spikes]

I love those yellow tails

[Fencer51]

There is an 82nd FG website ran by veterans.  Ask there if they ever saw such a plane as in the painting.

Also check this plane.. top one.

http://www.82ndfightergroup.com/95photos-planesTaylorV.htm

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Fencer51
There is an 82nd FG website ran by veterans.  Ask there if they ever saw such a plane as in the painting.

Also check this plane.. top one.

http://www.82ndfightergroup.com/95photos-planesTaylorV.htm

That's a J up top.  Never been a fan of sharks mouths on the large intake 38s.

Looks good on the 39th FS birds and thier Fs and Gs.

82nd history has color images of the birds with all Black vertical stabilizers for the 97th FS which has the C codes, and all Red for the 95th FS which had A codes.  96th had B codes and either a white or yellow vertical stab.

The individual squadron letter was the second letter of the code on the radiator and was also painted on the tail.  Later they left the codes off the radiators and just had the individual squadron letter on the tail with the color identifying the squadron.

So that painting in theory if it was accurate would show red spinners, and could have the yellow tail but it would have 96th Squadron codes.

A bit of artistic license at work I think

In all three squadrons when they had the codes on the radiator the radiator was painted black and the letters were white.

Spinners would have been MTO standard red.

[Guppy35]

Just a bit of hunting on the artist, Heinz Krebs.

He's got a thing for yellow  and for checkerboards on 38s as he's to two other 38 paintings where he has yellow spinners on MTO birds of both the 82nd and the first.  He also has checks on the noses of both.

The one appears to be CH-H again but the checks on the nose are different.  Not sure if the wings are supposed to be camo or what  the deal is.  



The 1st FG bird is 94th FS which had the yellow band on the tail outlined in black. But not yellow spinners and I've never seen checks on the nose of a 1st FG bird either.

The 18th FG birds in the Pacific had checkerboards, and some 38s of both the 370th and 474th had checks, but I've not seen an MTO bird with them.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen but the histories of both groups have a ton of images and nothing like these shows up and obviously the photo of CH-H isn't like the one in the painting Oboe first posted

[Guppy35]

Gonna stand corrected on a checkered MTO nose.  Found this image in an old book of 38 pictures.



The book only says it might be 94th FS, 1st FG but i believe it is.  It has a profile where the tail boom band is white, the prop spinners are yellow which I believe is where Krebs got his inspiration, but also made his mistake on the last painting.

We know the 94th FS ID color on the tail boom was yellow.  We also know that all USAAF fighters in the MTO had red spinners or cowl bands for recognition.

88 is the correct numbering for a 94th FS bird.  the 2 8 balls also confirm that it's 88 on the radiators.  Someone had time to put the black and white checks on the nose and the black trim behind the red spinners as well.  I have no idea what color the spiral on the spinner is.

Again I did a quick profile with a fake serial to show what I think it whould have looked like based on what's known about 94th FS standard markings.
The book suggests this is a 38J btw although that might be the dive flap under the right wing, which would make it an L-1.  This might fit as towards the end of the war the paint schemes got crazier as they found more time for painting as operations wound down.

[oboe]

Great stuff Dan!  

First, a clarification.   The 1st FG 38s you show seem to have black bordered yellow bands on the booms, with natural metal tail sections (elevator, horizontal and vertical stabs).   Or do you mean to include the aft part of the booms when you refer to the tail?   I'd definitely consider skinning the 1st FG P-38L from the photo - she's a real clean ship.

I do have the P-38 MTO Aces book - its packed away and I just haven't dug it out yet, but I will soon.   Does anyone know, will HTC accept a P-38J-25 skin for the 38L model?

Not sure what J model Baby Shoes is, but I just deleted the dive recovery flaps from the lower wing panel lines as part of my resubmit of that skin.   I guess if she is a J25 or later, the panel lines would've been correct to show them even if they don't work in AH's 38J.    I finally figured out how those flaps work from a photo I saw in "P-38s In Action", which I bought last weekend!   I never really knew where or how they were represented in the panel lines until now.  

I'd consider doing that shark-mouthed J if there are some more images that show closeups of the nose art and the tail reg number, and whether the tail was all red.    It's really aggressive-looking and might be popular with the pilots.    Another question for the 82nd website guys, I think.

I do like the Krebs version too, but wouldn't do it if all I have to go on is his paintings, esp if it conflicts with historical photos of the bird.

So, "Paddy", an 82nd FG 38L for sure, and this 94th FS 1stFG 38L is a real possibility too, if we are in agreement on the color patterns in the tail section.  

Any color images of 14th FG L's anywhere?    I'll also look at the ETO/MTO Aces book when I get a chance.   I thought that book showed boom stripe colors from the 1st FG as White, Black, or Red though.    

I think I remember an ETO 38L with the noseart "BOOMERANG" from that book.    

Thanks for your help!

[EDIT] Missed your last post but that one looks great.    I'd like to try one with checkerboard on the nose, just to see how acceptable it would look with the stretching issues on the 3D model.

[oboe]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Gonna stand corrected on a checkered MTO nose.  Found this image in an old book of 38 pictures.

You know, the white on the nose tip looks brighter/lighter than the light shade in the checkerboard - is it possible the checkerboard is yellow/black?   The very tip of the nose also looks like it might be a slightly darker shade.

ANyway to find out the real registration # of 88?   Need a site like Little Friends, except for the 15th AF...

Agreed, that looks like dive flaps under the wing.   I'd wanna do this one as an "L", but would check with HTC first.

Can you make an inspired or educated guess for the color of the spinner spiral?

[Guppy35]

Tough call on the nose.  The yellow of the tail boom looks light but not as light as the nose color.  Yet the yellow and black checks make more sense.

as for the nose spiral, only thing I can imagine is some type of blue

I'd like to think that a J-25 would be skinned on the L-1 since they both have the external features the same and were basically the same bird.

The J-25 is far closer to the AH L then it is to the AH J-15.

The yellow trim for 94th FS birds was just the tail boom not the the horizontal or vertical tail.  Its clear on the photo I posted of the unnamed 94th L-1 and the same as the profile of the checkerboard version.  It was not the norm to have color behind the aircraft number as on 88.

[oboe]

Are there any significant, performance-related differences between the J-25 and the L?

What about hydraulically powered ailerons to increase roll rate?  When did they show up?

[EDIT] Found the answer - hydraulic aileron assist did show up in the J25.

One big problem I think was that the J25 did not have the zero-length rocket launcher rails found on our L.   So skinning a J25 as an L would give it a capability in game it did not have in RL.   I think that's a show-stopper.

[Guppy35]

Hmmm, the L never carried those rockets in the MTO or ETO and only mimimally in the PTO.

I think for the sake of some ETO/MTO Ls HTC should go for it