Defense against the spiral climb engagement

[toonces3]

Hi all.

I had an engagement against SLAPSHOT last night and I'm trying to figure out what I could have done differently.

I upped a Seafire off the CV expecting to do CV defense, but all the bad guys left.  So I was out trolling around at 10k when I came across a lone F6F.  The F6F was loitering about 13k-15k I would estimate.  

I headed towards him and started a shallow climb.  I was maintaining quite a bit of speed still, probably in the 240-280 IAS I would estimate.  As I merged with the F6F, I would say my alt was in the 12k range and the Hellkitty was perhaps 2k above me.

As I went underneath and to one side of the F6, I looked straight up to see his move and I recognized that he was climbing.  It disoriented me because it put his plane in a position where, when I turned, I had to look over a wing vertically and I had trouble keeping my orientation with respect to what my plane was doing and where he was with respect to my plane.  

What I think I did at this point was do a shallow left turn and initiate a shallow climb to keep him maneuvering.  Somehow, in the course of maneuvering, he flopped or turned beyond range where I could quite see what he was doing and fell onto my 6 at 400 yards.  I tried everything I could think of, but eventually he chewed off a wing and I parachuted home.

I've been thinking about this engagement, and what I could have done to avoid getting killed so quickly.  

Usually I don't like to engage uphill, but at the same time, I didn't want to turn tail and run just because I was disadvantaged.  I made a conscious decision to stay and fight even though I knew that I was already starting defensive.

Yet, once he went vertical, it seems the only smart move for me would have been to go nose low and extend.  Anything else I did was surrendering energy while he was gaining energy, or at least staying equal, by climbing.  It was really a brilliant move, and I've only seen it once or twice before, probably by him, where a plane with a significant alt advantage initiated a strong vertical move on the merge.  Usually I motor by and then roll inverted and pull onto the guys six in the same situation.

Alright, so I'm curious what you all would have done in this situation.  Chances are I wasn't going to beat Slapshot regardless, but I'd like to be more competitive in the event I see this move again, or even try it myself.
I asked him what he did after the merge and he said he spiral climbed, which makes sense because the orientation of his plane was very hard to judge looking over a wing and turning myself.

[Latrobe]

I've noticed (and tryed with success) going verticle instead of making a turn, and the people who go verticle usually come down on the bandits six. When you're doing a flat turn you can only go wherever your nose is, but if you're nose is pointed upwards then you can go in any direction.

If I were in that situation I would have noticed I could not follow him in the vert, so I would split-s to pick some speed up and (if possible) fly in the oposite direction that his canopy is facing. As soon as he comes down I would immelman towards him.

I'd then plan the rest as I go.

[Saxman]

First, I wouldn't have climbed INTO him. Either fly parallel to his course, or even away from him. You don't have to break and run, but it's generally better to maintain separation while you're trying to equalize altitude, especially if you're dealing with a gap of several thousand feet. One advantage is you'll have more reaction time, and room to get out of his way if he tries to BnZ you.

Depending on the opponent, you can often force HIM to neutralize his own altitude advantage.

[BaldEagl]

If it was me, when I first spotted him I would have gone into a full climb with WEP on at an off-angle (not towards him) to negate his alt advantage or I would have gotten close enough to tempt him then went nose low with him on my six but still out of guns range.

Either way, once E-states were equalized there's no way he'd out spiral climb a Spit in an F6F so that move would be taken from his arsenal and placed in yours.  In fact, most vertical moves would be in your favor at that point.

Slapshot and I had a great fight one night recently.  He's a good stick in that F6F (and also in the FM2) so I'm sure he'd have taken advantage of any mistake you made regardless of the situation.

[SlapShot]

If I have a slight alt advantage and a little more E on a Spit when in the HellCat, I will always try the spiral climb ... and most go for it. The HellCat is an underestimated plane by most ... they think ... heavy Navy JABO brick.

The HellCat, despite what most believe, is an excellent climber ... I watched a special on the HellCat once, and it was specifically designed to CLIMB with and surpass the climb of the Zeros.

The WildCat (previous Navy plane before the HellCat) did not have the climb rate to match the Zeke and they were getting roped like crazy ... until the US pilots figured out not to try and climb with the Zero.

Once the Navy pilots got the HellCats, the Japanese Pilots really didn't notice the difference between the HellCat and the WildCat ... until they tried to rope them ... and then they never got the chance to go back and spread the news.

The HellCat could easily climb to any climb/zoom manuver that the Zero tried and to make things worse for the Japanese ... the HellCat dove even better than the WildCat too. From that point on, the HellCats used their superior climb, dive, and speed to all but decimate the Japanese Air Force.

Anyhow ...

I've been thinking about this engagement, and what I could have done to avoid getting killed so quickly.

You almost answered your own question ...

Yet, once he went vertical, it seems the only smart move for me would have been to go nose low and extend.

NEVER EVER go nose low unless you absolutely have to as a last ditch effort. Once you go nose low ... you have effectively submitted to losing the fight.

Rather ... extend with nose slightly high as to gain some alt, but at the same time save some of your speed.

I had an encounter with a P-38 vs my FM2 last night at around 9-10K. He had alt and E on me in a big way. At each merge I made sure that I didn't present a guns solution for him and as he passed, I straightened out and when slight nose high ... extending away from him as he climbed trading his speed for alt.

As he reversed for another pass (we were on avg. 2.5K-3.0K apart), I did the same thing. After each pass the extended distance became smaller. He was slowly losing his alt/speed/E advantage on each pass. This is what I was hoping for.

Sometimes I time it right and sometimes I don't.

I finally got us both to an almost equal alt / E situation so on the next pass I went for broke. As we merged, he assumed that I was going to do what I had been doing for the last 10 minutes ... but I didn't.

At this point, I had enough E to actually reverse, and as he started his climb, I was climbing 600 behind him.

Well ... with .50 cals, you can reach out and touch someone in a big way at 600 out ... so I let lose a lead rope that lit up his plane ... causing one of his engines to smoke with possible more damage.

This shocked him causing him to abort his climb and snap turn left presenting a big beautiful target ... muwahahah ... he is now mine !!! I squeezed the trigger ... only to realize that I probably only had less than 100 .50 cals left ... so I couldn't finish the job ...

He took off, with another friendly in chase who had finally climbed to our alt. I landed, re-armed ... he killed the friendly ... I did find him again and finished what I started.

The long and short of it ... extend nose slightly high and watching your six for his reverse. It is best to reverse back into him at a minimum of 1.5K and then go slightly nose down to gain speed for a reversal if the chance presents itself.

Keep doing that (if you have the patience - most times I don't) until you get to equal or almost equal alt/E states and then make your move.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
Either way, once E-states were equalized there's no way he'd out spiral climb a Spit in an F6F so that move would be taken from his arsenal and placed in yours.  In fact, most vertical moves would be in your favor at that point.

I'm not so sure that I would agree with that ... depending on the Spit.

Most Spits I don't think could keep a nose up climbing turn with the F6F without falling off the table first ... given equal E/speed states. I could be wrong, as I am only going by my experiences.

Again, people really underestimate the vertical abilities of the HellCat ... and that's just fine with me.

190s, 109s, P-38s, P-51s, P-47s, C205s have all died to my F6F guns thinking that they could whoop the F6F in the vertical only for them to then realize how well the F6F dives while following them down to the deck as they try to "get out of Dodge".

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by SlapShot
I'm not so sure that I would agree with that ... depending on the Spit.

Most Spits I don't think could keep a nose up climbing turn with the F6F without falling off the table first ... given equal E/speed states. I could be wrong, as I am only going by my experiences.

Again, people really underestimate the vertical abilities of the HellCat ... and that's just fine with me.

190s, 109s, P-38s, P-51s, P-47s, C205s have all died to my F6F guns thinking that they could whoop the F6F in the vertical only for them to then realize how well the F6F dives while following them down to the deck as they try to "get out of Dodge".

I'm only going by my own experiences but the three planes I fly the most are the Spit (any model), FW190 (mostly the A-8) and the F6F-5.  They pretty much share equal time with me and the Spit's as a group will outclimb the Hellcat, particularily if the fight has gotten slow at some point.

[Edit]  I just checked the climb rate charts posted on this site and the F6F may climb with the Spit I and V but not with any of the others.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm only going by my own experiences but the three planes I fly the most are the Spit (any model), FW190 (mostly the A-8) and the F6F-5.  They pretty much share equal time with me and the Spit's as a group will outclimb the Hellcat, particularily if the fight has gotten slow at some point.

[Edit]  I just checked the climb rate charts posted on this site and the F6F may climb with the Spit I and V but not with any of the others.

Thanks for the info ... I wonder how those climb charts related to a spiral type climb ?

I guess the thing that the HellCat has going for it the most is that it is a very misunderstood and under estimated by most who play this game.

[humble]

When a fight starts your either nuetral or in a positive (aggresser) of negative (defensive) state. The 1st reality is that the high plane (lets not focus on the fact that the other guy is an "ace") will dictate the fight. It doesnt matter how much E he has...personally I just ignore his "merge" and fly on by. Let him go up...and then let him go down. your 1st "mistake" is that you were not in any position to merge....

Now the reality is that your going to need to defend an attack...so you wait for that attack. SOP is to turn into the attack in a bit of a lo yoyo giving you the under and inviting a poor shot. Now knowing who it is dollars to donuts he'd decline the shot and counter with a hi yoyo and set up a set of tightening high yo even to high passes...a fight the spitty cant counter and cant win....

At that point I know a couple of things...I'm negative E vs a non noob and if I let him he'll E fight me to death. So 1st thing I do is point the nose straight down...I'm gonna go hard to the deck. The F6F is faster then the spit, accelerates faster and climbs better. Given its combat flaps it'll actually out turn the spitty under most scenarios as well...

To win I need to get the guy out of his comfort zone. I need to keep the fight in the 225-325 zone and in the semi verticals. He cant know if I'm E fighting or going angles. So I'll take his alt away and but us down on the deck...now he can stay high or be smart but to kill me he's got to engage me. Then I'd go from oblique loops to a climbing rolling scissor...assuming i've lived (no sure thing) i'm then gonna rinse and repeat sceaming back down....but immediately pull back and up with chopped throttle and a full on "rudder slap" barrel roll defense....everything else is/was just a setup for that one move...if I can force him out in front (a decent chance vs even a good stick) then it all comes down to can I hit the shot...

Why not due that 1st go around...because a good stick will be looking for it and a bad stick will lose the edge in the 1st set of moves. If you've only got one real chance make the most of it....

Again even in a co-e dueling merge the F6F will eat up a seafire given equal pilots...

[Widewing]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm only going by my own experiences but the three planes I fly the most are the Spit (any model), FW190 (mostly the A-8) and the F6F-5.  They pretty much share equal time with me and the Spit's as a group will outclimb the Hellcat, particularily if the fight has gotten slow at some point.

[Edit]  I just checked the climb rate charts posted on this site and the F6F may climb with the Spit I and V but not with any of the others.

Indeed, in a straight climb the Spits will out-climb the F6F (at least from the Mk.IX on). However, in a zoom, or energy climb, the F6F will hang onto a Co-E Spit without any trouble. Dogfights are not about straight climbs, they are about energy climbs. Heavy fighters have momentum in their advantage. Big, heavy fighters with low wing loadings, like the F6F, can zoom climb like crazy and maneuver very well at the top of that climb. If a pilot knows how to manage his E, and utilize momentum, the F6F can fight very well in the vertical, even against the best "E fighters" in the game. E-management is a combination of factors, one of which is not loading the airframe any more than needed.

Last week, I had the opportunity to fight a brief duel in the TA with one of the game's better known and somewhat notorious pilots. He had recently returned for a break and was looking for some serious ACM work to sharpen his edge a bit. I won't violate his trust and reveal his old handle. He wanted remain anonymous to avoid drawing notice. You may have seen his current handle in the MAs. I believe that this isn't his first shade since returning, as I believe that I flew a series of duels against him a few weeks prior. Not that it matters, there's been a recent flood of shades accounts and I seem to run into a lot of them in the TA.

Well, this gent was flying a 109K-4 and I had an F6F-5. After our duel, he then flew another fight with Murdr, also in an F6F. He got plenty of work, and accounted for himself very well.

Below is a link to a film of the duel. You will note that for much of the fight, the F6F had as much or more E, even though the 109 was much faster on the initial merge. Despite the 109K's vastly better acceleration and straight climb, it was not possible to utilize these attributes in a close-quarter brawl with a Hellcat. Nonetheless, this fellow did a good job in the 109K, getting an MG ping on my Hellcat early on.

Click here for the film

My regards,

Widewing

[bozon]

The rule of thumb is that if the other guy has the advantage, but is delaying the attack, you should make sure you have good speed and use it to build lateral separation.

You merged and passed under him, he went up (common MA mistake), you should have unloaded to get about 300 mph and go level. By the time he has finished his vertical maneuver and point at you, he is in for a chase instead of an attack position. Now, to get you he has to be faster than the already fast speed you have. Usually he will dive after you faster than his max level speed and loose E. The separation means you have time and space to turn into him and give him a difficult shot. Most MA pilots will either push the shot - miss, loose E and overshoot, or go vertical, where you repeat the process. after 2-3 times his E advantage will be small enough for you to turn aggressive or he will run out of patience.

Never go into a defensive turn under someone who has pulled up and is about to come down on you. He will just roll inside your turn and pull lead and ANY plane will beat your turn no matter if you are a spit and he is P47/190 etc. This is not even a very difficult shot to make.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Saxman
First, I wouldn't have climbed INTO him. Either fly parallel to his course, or even away from him. You don't have to break and run, but it's generally better to maintain separation while you're trying to equalize altitude, especially if you're dealing with a gap of several thousand feet. One advantage is you'll have more reaction time, and room to get out of his way if he tries to BnZ you.

Depending on the opponent, you can often force HIM to neutralize his own altitude advantage.

Exactly, never climb too him, if you try to climb under him, if he's any sort of good stick you are likely going to be dead. First off I hate dealing with BnZer's, that's not a fight as far as I'm concerned. So if I'm at a big disadvantage with a BnZer I'll just separate myself from the fight, if I have to drop to the deck then I'll do it and I'll go find another fight.

I don't consider it running, because if all they are doing is BnZing then as I said, I don't consider that a real fight. At least not one I'm going to keep myself in if I can help it.

If they chase you, and try to stay in contact with you, in most cases they will have to lose their alt. At that point you are more likely to get a fight with him at not such a big disadvantage. If he's smart he will just go look for another con to BnZ.

The only way to match that fight IMO, is to either dodge them enough so they burn their E (if he's not a good pilot) or try to separate as much as you can then climb until you have equal alt and re-engage. So if I can't do either I'll drop to the deck and try to get him to fight on my terms or as I said I'll find a better fight if he doesn't follow me down.

It also really has a lot to do with what you are flying vs what he's flying.