Typhoon vs. FW-190 performance

[JB73]

dora = purdy




as for the typhoon, well in air to air "performance" I am pretty sure the aircraft carriers can out flat turn the Dora, the typh has NO problem in that area, it can also do a hammerhead 150% better than a dora, and I think it it has a better zoom climb overall.

[BaldEagl]

The Typhoon is a great plane kept fast and the 4x20mm Hispanos are lethal as h***.  

Everyone worries when a Tempest is nearby... why not it's little brother?  Aside from the power difference (meaning all-around better performance for the Tempest) they can both do the same things.

Part of what makes the Typh feel like a dog to many is it's reverse torque engine which means you have to reverse your normal turn and roll tendencies to get the most out of it.  In fact, the torque is so powerful it makes it hard to turn into the torque so, as others have said, you need to use rudder to manhandle it around.  

In a slower turn fight this means you are likey to stall if following most other planes through the turn, but, although it may seem akward not to be chasing someones six, if you reverse you're own turn it really isn't that bad a turn fighter (much better than any of the 190's, slightly worse than a Pony D).

Also, because of this high reverse torque issue, rolling into the torque will stall you inverted even at medium speeds.

Turn and roll with the torque and the Typh is actually a very sweet plane, otherwise, prepare to use a LOT of rudder.

[toonces3]

Well, I had the opportunity to try this out last night.

There was a Typh over my field last night while I was in the tower.  I watched him pick this guy over and over, always keeping his alt and diving on this guy re-upping and basically blowing him up in a pass or two.  Finally, when his back was turned, I upped a D9 in the opposite direction and climbed out on WEP.  Once I got about 4k of alt, I reversed and accelerated to about 300 mph.  

Now I'm approaching him 1v1.  He sees me, he's about 1.5k above me and of course he dives on me.  I pull into him and he misses the HO/high angle shot.  We extend a bit, go another turn and he settles 800 to 1000 back from me.  I do a couple of scissors, barrels, etc. and eventually end up 600-800 out from him flat out on the deck.  

At this point another guy engaged me and I had to break off.  I feel confident that, had I not been engaged, it would have been a foot race.  Given this guy had been B n Z'ing for several minutes before I upped, it's debatable if his WEP would've run out in time for me to run him down.  Had that happened, I feel confident I would have killed him.

I can't be certain, I'm not expert in either plane, but it certainly seems that beyond the 2nd merge and a few twists, the Typhoon had realized that further maneuvering would only have served to reduce his energy to fight, while the Dora retained enough low-E maneuverability to shift the advantage to the Dora.  Realizing that, the Typhoon disengaged and used low-alt speed to egress.   However, given equal speeds at the start, the race would ultimately depend on who had enough WEP left.  It would have been fun to continue this fight.  This guy didn't seem to be a total n00b in the Typhoon, can't say for certain, and it would have been interesting to follow this experiment to its logical conclusion.

Might be fun to DA someone and try this again.

[BaldEagl]

Like I said, the Typh/Temp are not that bad at turn fighting.

I got caught climbing out of one of our fields the other night in a Spit VIII by Drediock above me in a Temp.  He tried at least three fast B'n'Z firing passes on me but I was able to avoid every one, all the time burning a little more of my already limited E.

In the end we wound up on the deck in a classic flat turn fight and he got inside me before I could get around on him.  I'm nearly positive he had reduced throttle so as to maintain turn and not overshoot as I was surprised he was turning that well with me (I was pulled well into the stall buzzer).

I fly 190's a lot and Temps/Typhs occasionally and I wouldn't go more than a turn or two against them in a 190 (at least not one on one).

While they (Temps/Typhs) are fast at alt (17K or so) they aren't all that fast on the deck.  I've been run down by Ponys and even Yak-9U's on the deck.

[Laciner]

On a tangent, I've just finished reading Osprey's "Typhoon/Tempest Aces of World War 2". The cover painting shows a pair of Typhoons shooting down an early-model 190. The Typhoon spent its early air-to-air career hunting down low-level 190 raids. It seems that the Luftwaffe used the 190 for high-speed, low-level hit & run bombing raids, very much in the manner of Aces High's Typhoon. Looking at the 190's stats, I see that the 190A5 is faster than all the early-model Spitfires at low level, particularly at 5K.

The combats described in the book are broadly the same. The Typhoon pilots spot the 190s early, in part because they have radar. Then they dive on the 190s, and either (a) "I fired a one-second burst from 350-200 yards and observed strikes around the starboard wing root and cockpit, after which the 190 turned onto its back and descended vertically until it hit the ground" or (b) "I couldn't gain on the 190, until he tried to turn, at which point I caught up and fired a one-second burst etc". Almost invariably the 190 pilot does not bail out, because the combats happen just above the water, although the book describes a kill at 20,000+ feet against a Ju 88. Loads of Do 217s fell to the Typhoon's guns. A couple of dozen RAF pilots were also killed by the Typhoon. At least one man died of carbon monoxide poisoning, and several died when the tail unit fell off in a dive. As I have mentioned in another thread, one German ack-ack gunner was killed when the wing of a low-level Typhoon struck his head.

There are only a couple of anecdotes in which the 190 pilot does any effective jinking manoeuvres. I assume that initial shock and surprise counted for a huge amount in real-life air warfare; that, and the fact that real human beings can't flick their eyes around in a split-second by twiddling a hat switch.

The Tempest chapters are relatively dull, but I urge you to read Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Circus", in which he describes being monstered in his Tempest by one of the few remaining 190D aces, right in the last month or so of the war. He tries to catch up with the 190D, and then he glances at his instruments for a moment, and whoot! the 190D is on him and he has to hit the silk.

[JimBeam]

In my limited opinion, the Typhoon is hard to dogfight in. Even Soda's page basically says that once you're not supersonic in the Typhoon, defensively you're dead meat

i dare you to fight allison's typhoon in one of those 190s

[toonces3]

I don't know who Allison is, but there are any number of folks (Dedalos comes to mind, probably SkyRock too, and others) who can kill me in virtually any plane.

My whole argument presupposes equally skilled pilots.

[toonces3]

Well, this thread has probably run its course, but for the sake of completeness, I'll post my experience from last night.

I upped a Typh, and was flying over a friendly airfield at maybe 10k.  There was a lot of dar bar, and alot of friendlies as well, so I was expecting action.  I would usually grab 15k of altitude, but my understanding is that the Typhoon prefers lower alts so I'm experimenting with coming in lower and faster in it.

At any rate, somehow a FW-190A5 gets the jump on me.  Came in from high 6 with more speed than me and I was automatically put on the defensive.  As he closed, I gave a good hard high-G turn figuring he couldn't match it (accidentally turned left- oops), then rolled hard right into a split s and pointed my nose right at the deck.  Got my speed up, pulled up at about 1k and checked 6.  The A5 was still sitting back there, 600 out.  While I was watching, I saw it go to 800.  At this point I figure I'm opening and given my speed advantage I should start opening the distance.  However, I then see the range go back to 600!  As best I can figure, with combat trim on, over 400 mph the auto trim can't compensate for the nose up tendency and I must have started floating up, reducing speed and allowing the A5 to close.  

I'm not proud of my next move, but I'm being honest here.  I had the town just in front of me so I aimed for the town, got right in the bushes and hoped for the best.  By then another friendly had engaged the A5, and the A5 broke off.  Had there been no town, 1v1, I doubt I would have successfully evaded (or even beat) the A5.  

I strongly feel the 190 is a better dogfighter than the Typhoon.

[Jarski]

Allison is a pilot who flies a Typhoon. When he starts to get near you he will warp around and you will not see him again until he is on your tail shooting.

He cheats somehow.

[Shamus]

Calling her a him may have ticked her off, now she's really gonna wup on ya.

shamus

[Wmaker]

Jarski, tutkitaan ennenku hutkitaan.

[Charge]

"i dare you to fight allison's typhoon in one of those 190s"

I have and she managed to lure me to dump E and after that my brief attempt of furballing was just a formality after my A8 lost a wing.

Then again I do not have a high regard of A8's dogfighting abilities as the choices are quite limited of what it can do. I feel that Tiffie has slightly better acceleration, better E retention and better turn than A8 and the roll does not help too much if the Tiffie dumps some E and stays behind as the A8 cannot make major changes in direction without either stalling or losing E.

With A5 the margin is smaller but I rarely fly it so I don't really know. D9 is probably better than Tiffie.

And of course Tiffie has better guns than any 190.

-C+

[JimBeam]

Originally posted by Charge
"i dare you to fight allison's typhoon in one of those 190s"

I have and she managed to lure me to dump E and after that my brief attempt of furballing was just a formality after my A8 lost a wing.

Then again I do not have a high regard of A8's dogfighting abilities as the choices are quite limited of what it can do. I feel that Tiffie has slightly better acceleration, better E retention and better turn than A8 and the roll does not help too much if the Tiffie dumps some E and stays behind as the A8 cannot make major changes in direction without either stalling or losing E.

With A5 the margin is smaller but I rarely fly it so I don't really know. D9 is probably better than Tiffie.

And of course Tiffie has better guns than any 190.

-C+

yeah i personally find it easy to kill most 190s in a tiffy unless they have much more E at the beginning of the fight

[Angus]

Laciner, - The first Griffon powered Spits were used to hunt 190's on their speed raids. They would actually catch them running, and the 190's could not use the rollie-rollie to their benefit. (there were clipped Spit XII's)
The tiffies, so fast at low alt, and lethally armed would normally have the runners for toast before there was much of a fight. does anyone have a dogfight account of 190's vs tiffies? I remember only one where Ta 152's shot down Tempests, but that's about it.
Same in AH. Once a Tiffie starts scoring hits on you, you are dead.

[2020]

Originally posted by morfiend
4 hispano's:aok

The Hurricane IIC has 4 hispanos.