Author Topic: Lesson in E Fighting  (Read 2269 times)

Offline indy007

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2007, 09:32:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by odin3
i'm a B&Zer and it aint cherry picking.. I can understand being about 10k about everyone going down, shooting someone, flying away, thats cherry picking.. E fighting isnt easy at all... i could say the same thing about turn fighters.. I fly the f4u and lets say a zero gets me into a turn fight (and i shouldnt, but it happens) the odds are now in his favor right?? so whats the difference, you take the strengths of your plane and use it to the disadvantage of the other plane.. nothing wrong with that at all.. You should tell all the B&Zers of WWII that they are worthless.. You do what you do to survive.

my 2 pennys


1) It's not real war. You have an unlimited supply of cartoon planes.
2) You can "out turn" the Zeke by using your F4Us superior roll rate.

Basically, imho, and I think many will agree, the guys that are really great at energy management are not the guys that come in on top of the pile and slowly work their way down without endangering themselves. Anybody can do that with minimal training. The exceptionally dangerous guys are the ones that start with an energy disadvantage, and manage it well enough to bleed off their attackers energy and reverse them. That's far more impressive to watch than 1 guy shooting up a pile of people roping themselves.

Offline Simaril

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2007, 09:32:43 AM »
You can out turn a plane that is more maneuverable than you -- by being a better pilot. That means using energy, flaps, ACM, vertical components, and PRECISE control to get the most out of your inferior plane...while hoping the opponent can't use his plane to its potential.

But doing that relies on your opponent being a less competent pilot. In a crowded arena, it is often wiser to not assume you'll get away with it.
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Offline SkyRock

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2007, 12:27:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by odin3
ya, that dont make sence, how can i outturn a plane that is more manueverable..

I'm just saying that some planes arent made for turn fighting.. some are..

pick your angles correctly.  The only bad part is, if you don't get that gun solution your working for, you will have no E and will not be able to sustain the turn with them.  :aok

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2007, 12:33:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by odin3
ya, that dont make sence, how can i outturn a plane that is more manueverable..

I'm just saying that some planes arent made for turn fighting.. some are..


By using angles to but into the turn of the more maneuverable fighter.  For example, a FW190A-8 can use its superior roll rate to get inside of a more maneuverable plane's turn for a shot.


ack-ack
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Offline SunBat

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Re: Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2007, 12:49:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HighGTrn

When it was all said and done, this guy killed and landed 8 victories without sustaining a single ping (from what I could see).

 [/B]


Next time this happens to you, get a p51d, 109k4, or ki84 (or any other fast climbing plane) and fly low, out and away from the base until you are out of icon range, climb about 3 to 5 k above where he is and come back.  Watch him run.....  or u may actually have a nice 1 on 1 fight while ur kill stealing compadres are trying to get up to you to interfere.  (If you want a good one on one, come in co-alt to keep it even and fun).

If you find that somehow he happens to get you as you are climbing away (shouldn't happen if there are more folks at the base and its not a vulch situation), get another dude to climb out in the opposite direction.  One of you will make it up to ruin his party.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 12:51:43 PM by SunBat »
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Offline mtnman

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2007, 01:07:21 PM »
Personally, I'm always looking for "good" fights.  It's impossible to have a "good" fight against an idiot, or against someone flying like an idiot.  I expect / demand the best that pilot can give, and so I must also give my best.  I want a "chess-match" fight where both pilots use their brains to outsmart / out-fly their opponent.

The majority of pilots in this game fly like idiots, and as such are not possible to have a "good" fight against.  You may as well send them back to the tower quickly, and save everyone from wasting their time.  Plain and simple, "picking" them is really devoting all the energy they deserve or require.  Why waste an aerobatic routine on them?  All you need to do to avoid being picked is use your brain and your six view.

Many fly stupidly out of a sense of glory- diving right into a swarm of enemies hoping to kill a few before they get killed themselves.  I think the vast majority of these guys are using that tactic as an excuse for dieing.  "I didn't die because I suck, I died because I took on an impossible fight!"  They like nothing better than to be given a handy excuse for dieing.  It takes the blame away from their poor flying and / or SA, and hopefully makes them look like it took lots of luck to kill them.  "You picked me!"

The average guy coming into this game has a sense for what "dogfighting" is.  This is the classic idea of TnB.  Most never progress beyond this point.  It is the most "instinctual" method of fighting, and as such needs less "thought".  Those few that actually use their brains in this type of fighting will shine like diamonds, but they are the minority for sure.  Generally, they'll tell you they're studs, so you won't have to try to figure it out for yourself.

The next step is getting sick of dieing quickly, pointlessly, stupidly, etc...  A desire to live longer, and land a few kills is spawned.  This leads to flying fast planes, and taking minimal risks.  Some research is likely done in an effort to get better.  This leads to BnZ fighting.  Fairly boring, but probably the easiest to master, and easiest to succeed at with minimal deaths.  Once mastered, these guys will be known as dedicated pickers, and be labeled as "scum".  How dare they attempt to progress beyond BnZ???

Those looking for a go-between between TnB and BnZ will eventually discover E fighting.  This is the toughest to master, and IMO is the most rewarding.  It offers the best of both worlds, and IMO is the most fun.  It is the only way a "poorer" turning plane will consistantly "out-turn" a "better" turning plane.  Or that an outnumbered pilot will have hope of winning.  The guys that get this type of fighting figured out are the "dangerous" guys in the game.  The ones that constantly pull themselves out of the hairy situations with kills to show for it.

Assuming equal pilots- in a pure TnB fight, the zeke beats the corsair every time.  In a pure BnZ fight, the zeke dodges the corsair every time.  In an E fight, the corsair can prevail.  In an 8v1, the numbers will always beat the single plane (again assuming competent pilots on both sides).  In an 8v1, if the single plane uses BnZ tactics, he might get a kill or two.  It'll be tough though, because the 8 will be giving six calls, and eventually will chase the BnZ'er from his post.

An E fighter in a similar situation will kill several of the 8, and won't allow them to chase him off.  If he kills enough of the 8, he might even thin their ranks to the point of being able to have a "good" fight before RTB'ing.  Chances are the remaining fighters at that point will be alive because they are also using their brains- and E fighting tactics to survive.  

Of course, if the 1 gets a little too impatient, blows his E, or dives into the swarm, he's an idiot, and won't be worth attempting to have a "good" fight against.  Might as well pick him off of one of your buddies, send him back to the tower, and hope for a better opponent next time...

Sounds like the C205 has his E fighting figured out!  I'm guessing he'd be a dangerous opponent in any plane he chooses, and would be a prime candidate for one heck of a "good" fight! (If any of those lower guys would show him they deserve to have a shot at it!)

MtnMan
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Offline hubsonfire

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2007, 02:02:39 PM »
I ask you, is the idiot the guy just having fun mixing it up, or the guy demanding that others fight the way he wants them to, and calling them idiots if they don't?
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Offline DarkS1ar

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2007, 02:03:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mtnman

The average guy coming into this game has a sense for what "dogfighting" is.  This is the classic idea of TnB.  Most never progress beyond this point.  It is the most "instinctual" method of fighting, and as such needs less "thought".  Those few that actually use their brains in this type of fighting will shine like diamonds, but they are the minority for sure.  Generally, they'll tell you they're studs, so you won't have to try to figure it out for yourself.

MtnMan



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Offline 2bighorn

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2007, 03:33:13 PM »
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.

Even in a very tight phone booth fight you're dealing with E. Sometimes just as much as to know when to dump E for that angle shot, or to make other guy overshoot.

Making E-fighting a special category is silly.

Offline SlapShot

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2007, 03:53:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.

Even in a very tight phone booth fight you're dealing with E. Sometimes just as much as to know when to dump E for that angle shot, or to make other guy overshoot.

Making E-fighting a special category is silly.


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Offline mtnman

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2007, 03:59:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I ask you, is the idiot the guy just having fun mixing it up, or the guy demanding that others fight the way he wants them to, and calling them idiots if they don't?


I don't have a problem with somebody jumping in and mixing it up any way they want to, even if it is in what I consider to be a foolish manner.  That doesn't make them an idiot.  If they know the odds, accept them, and are willing to live with the results, it's a logical decision.  

Some can fly in what appears to be a foolish manner, yet prevail more often than not.  That's not idiotic, it's actually smart flying.

But if he / she whines about the results, or seems to be surprised by those results, or cries because nobody bailed him out, etc, etc, etc, then yes I consider them idiots.  This game is absolutely full of people who do that.

I don't even expect them to fight by my standards.  ( Although I admit I would like to see a higher ratio of "skilled" fights.) But if they whine because they lose, when they flew in a manner that almost guarantees their loss, I see that as idiotic.

To fail repeatedly, yet continue to do the same thing, the same way, expecting different results is idiotic.

I'm one of the guys who almost never fights the way others want me to.  I don't see that as idiotic (per your quote), because it generally makes me successful and is fun for me.  When I lose, I deal with it, because I know I died due to my own choices.  If it wasn't fun, or led to constant failure, yet I continued to do so, I WOULD consider it idiotic.

Idiotic can be fun.  It's still idiotic.  

This game makes it possible to act like an idiot and still have fun, with no real negative consequences.  If everybody flew in this game with no desire to win / survive, this game would be the epitome of boring and pointless.

The guy who sets himself up to be picked, is picked, and then whines about it is acting like an idiot.

Fact is, if you die in this game it's because you chose to.  You made choices that got you killed.  To cry about the results of your own choices is idiotic.

MtnMan
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Offline mtnman

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2007, 06:13:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.

Even in a very tight phone booth fight you're dealing with E. Sometimes just as much as to know when to dump E for that angle shot, or to make other guy overshoot.

Making E-fighting a special category is silly.


As knowledge of a subject increases, classification increases.  De-classification or simplification leads to or continues vagueness and confusion.

By your argument, classifying TnB as different than Bnz is also silly.  Both use E-management, and for that matter identical flight manuevers.  Does that make them identical styles / tactics?

For that matter, simplifying it further, Bnz and TnB are really simply manned vehicles attempting to destroy each other with projectiles, just like GV's.  Can we classify their tactics seperately?  Should we?

Why name (classify) oaks as different than pines? Both are trees.

Why seperate trees from grass, when both are plants?

Why seperate animals from plants when both are living?

Why seperate living from non-living, when both are carbon based?

Since everything is carbon based, why classify at all?  That would really simplify things, as intelligence and language would be pointless (could be anyway...)

Everything is so simple when we stop classifying...

MtnMan
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storch

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2007, 10:23:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mtnman
 a really long wall of text to say
 there now all better.  

:D
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 10:26:15 AM by storch »

Offline mtnman

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2007, 10:49:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Clack, Clack-Clack, Clack...

:D
MtnMan

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Offline toonces3

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Lesson in E Fighting
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2007, 11:19:56 AM »
Great post HighGturn (and mtnman).

I've enjoyed flying with you the last few nights.  I hope you stay on the good guy chess piece team a while longer.


Toonces
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