Author Topic: Tiffy / Tempest flaps (Read 1161 times)

Bronk · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2007, 03:57:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
Whether they used flaps in combat historically is really irrelevant. What is important is whether they could have used them in combat. HTC is modeling the functionality of the aircraft, not pilot procedures or habits.

Just a thought, wouldn't we need a more complex modeling system?
What I'm getting at is... Planes like the 109 an tiff you'd have no preset positions. You would hit the flap down till you get the amount desired. If you try to dial in too much at too high a speed it would jam.

Viking · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2007, 04:06:46 PM »

Yup, we would need a step-less system, and no auto-retract. Like in Il2FB.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2007, 04:20:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
Whether they used flaps in combat historically is really irrelevant. What is important is whether they could have used them in combat. HTC is modeling the functionality of the aircraft, not pilot procedures or habits.

So show me the proof please

What we seem to have is the Tempest V pilot's notes from July 44 only saying Flaps at 160, and we have the one's Murdr has for the postwar Tempest II and V saying 200 for 20 degree flaps.

We understand that the Temp could stop at different points by using the VALVE STOP setting, but there wasn't a defined flap setting so to do so we'd need a new system for flaps in AH as well.

As any number of 38 drivers have wanted, it would allow for more complex use of flaps. But it's also clear that it isn't going to happen so I'd guess the Temp and Tiff are going to have to live with what they've got unless HTC would code in specific flap settings for the Tiff/Temp that really weren't there so they could drop to 5, then 20 then full or something similar.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2007, 04:30:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
The P-38 had more complicated fowler flaps, but it is questionable if they were worth the increased weight and production time.

First time I've heard something like this about adding Fowler Flaps to the P-38. Is this just your opinion or was it really questionable at the time?

ack-ack

Viking · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2007, 05:01:16 PM »

Oh, it's only my modest opinion. I just don't see why the 38 needed such complex flaps. Was the landing speed unusually high in 38s?

Widewing · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2007, 05:08:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
To my knowledge no non-American aircraft had something called "combat flaps". However, that's just because no-one else used the term "combat flaps". There is nothing special or magical about the P-51 flaps. They are simple plain/camber flaps just like on the 109 and many other aircraft. The P-38 had more complicated fowler flaps, but it is questionable if they were worth the increased weight and production time.

On page 6 of the P-38J/L pilots manual, there is a nice photo of the flap control lever. One position is marked "MANEU." for maneuver. If I remember correctly, the F4U manuals indicate that 10 and 20 degree settings may be used for maneuvering.

My regards,

Widewing

Viking · « **Reply #21 on:** November 21, 2007, 06:23:36 PM »

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what your post has got to do with my post?

Kweassa · « **Reply #22 on:** November 21, 2007, 07:15:08 PM »

Viking, perhaps it has to do with the 'ergonomics' of cockpit structure.

When you see the 109, the flap crank-wheel is on the left side, like a large windmill on the side of the cockpit. I have no real idea on what the combat conditions would be like, but it doesn't seem too difficult for the pilot at a HOTAS position, to slip his left hand back, feel the wheel, and then crank it a few degrees as he wants.

But I'm not sure how easy it would be if the lever was a part of the frontal/curved instrument board. The pilot would have to take his eyes off from his target, stretch his hand to the frontal board, use his fingers to move the lever to one side, and then move the lever again to a "Stop Valve" position, do his maneuver, and then retract the flap again when its not needed... while the switch/lever looks much more "modern" than the mundane "crank wheel", I'm guessing the crude "wheel" approach might actually be more easier for the pilot to get his hand on during intense combat.

Besides, it isn't uncommon for the average pilots to make all sorts of mistakes... especially rookies, in the heat of the battle, are known to pull wrong levers, put switches in wrong positions, turn something on and then forget about it.. and etc etc.. so I'm guessing flap usage in combat, wasn't something an airforce commander would want to intentionally teach to the pilots under his wing. Perhaps some pilots who fly regularly with slick veterans might be influenced to use flaps on a more regular level, but I really don't see a rookie pilot doing that.

Like, for instance, the story of Lawrence Thompson and his P-51... although his claims of meeting Hartmann is widely disputed, during that combat with the 109 he pulled down the flaps, and then actually forgot to retract them - which caused his plane to fall into a lucky stall/spin, which saved his life.

Ofcourse, this is a mere guess.