Soldiers found no evidence gunmen fired on Blackwater

[Delirium]

If anyone thinks they are going to get an straight story from either the Press or the White House, you're sadly mistaken.

Both of them have an agenda and both of them cherry pick information.

[FiLtH]

My brother who is over there atm told me having them there is cool by him. He said they do alot of stuff over. Not all of it bad. Basically mercs on mercs.

[-tronski-]

I think its a seriously bad thing if you effectively out-source (part of) your military to corporations.
I've always generally found for whatever faults there may be, the US military is a proud organisation which values it reputation and takes steps to  maintain that reputation - whereas mercenary companies seemingly don't.

AquaShrimp is correct - such action always is self destructive.
e.g: The Dutch/Australian construction teams in Afghanistan have had tremendous successes with the local populace because of the way they interact with the locals. I couldn't believe this same success would have been possible with similar incidents like this.

 Tronsky

[Dago]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Where did I rush to judgement?

Your statement:

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Preliminary reports indicate that the Blackwater guards didn't come under fire on Sept. 16 like they claimed. It also appears that most Iraqis that were killed were trying to flee the area.ack-ack

 

Originally posted by Ack-Ack I just posted a news article that reported the preliminary findings of the US soldiers that arrived shortly on-scene.  However, there are a couple of posters in this thread have rushed to judgement, could you name the two?


ack-ack [/B]

I can name one, you!

Excuse me if I don't accept as complete the findings of "the first to arrive" who by the way, are not trained at scene investigation, but rather trained as soldiers.

I gather in your response, you don't think that Police Departments need Detectives, rather lets just take the opinion of the first beat cop to arrive at a crime scene and base all our final judgements and decision to prosecute on his impressions?  

People need to learn to not accept as complete an initial impression, but reserve even preliminary judgment until all the details are revealed after full and complete investigation.  You do noone a favor in your rush to comment.

Do you really think the Blackwater guys just started hosing down innocent people for no reason?  If you think that, you 1) need to learn more about them and the job they do, and 2) need to stop watching so many Hollywood movies, they are skewing your concept of reality as has happened to so many other people.

Do you really think the Iraqis at the scene were completely honest, or even accurate in their statements, and were willing to offer even a slight bit of balance to their statements recognizing the Blackwater troops were attacked?

[Torque]

i know you have a kid there dago... but GtoRA2's point was spot on.

[john9001]

i find it interesting that a lt col of field artillery files his AAR reports with the news media.

[crockett]

Originally posted by john9001
i find it interesting that a lt col of field artillery files his AAR reports with the news media.

Must be the evil anti war liberal again. I bet it was Al Gore's fault.

[Dago]

Originally posted by Torque
but GtoRA2's point was spot on.

What, that a Lt Col in field artillery is trained to investigate the actions of private security firms and form judgments on which they are tried and found guilty in the press?

That the Iraqi people in the area can be trusted on without reservation to be completely honest and accurate in their statements when they are in an emotional state, or when they think there may be money to be made?

No, I don't think he is spot on, and while I am not trying to cast negative connotations on the Lt Col, I don't think he is trained nor was he prepared to do a complete and accurate investigation, and based on that I think any rush to judgment is wrong.

Are you the same guys who wanted to hang the Durham Rugby players like the DA?

[cpxxx]

Do you really think the Blackwater guys just started hosing down innocent people for no reason? If you think that, you 1) need to learn more about them and the job they do, and 2) need to stop watching so many Hollywood movies, they are skewing your concept of reality as has happened to so many other people.

I don't think anyone thinks that. What obviously happened is that 'someone' opened fire first. Whether it was Blackwater personnel reacting to a perceived threat, such as an approaching car which they mistook for suicide bomber or something else. Other guards, mistaking this for incoming fire, joined in and killed a lot of innocent people.

Or they were fired upon by someone in the crowd. In which case they returned fire but in the process shot a lot of innocent civilians including women and children. Not a strictly proportional reaction.

Either way it's not good.

Any investigation is going to look at several things. One has been mentioned, no apparent evidence of them being fired upon. This coming from the US Army on the scene. Combat soldiers may know or thing or two about what to expect to see after a firefight. If they see a lot of dead civilians lying around shot in the back. They might draw obvious conclusions.  Also the unanimity of reports from the witnesses. It's a mistake to think all Iraqis are anti American. Somebody would have said so had the Blackwater people been attacked first.


Were the vehicles hit? Were any Blackwater personnel hit? Evidently not. Any weapons recovered? How many of the victims fit the profile of insurgents? etc etc.

You don't have to Sherlock Holmes to work out what happened that day. A disproportionate reaction to a perceived threat whether real or not perpetrated by people who are not soldiers and not subject to the same discipline as the US military. It's surpising something like this hasn't happened sooner.

[Dago]

Originally posted by cpxxx
I don't think anyone thinks that. What obviously happened is that 'someone' opened fire first. Whether it was Blackwater personnel reacting to a perceived threat, such as an approaching car which they mistook for suicide bomber or something else. Other guards, mistaking this for incoming fire, joined in and killed a lot of innocent people.

Or they were fired upon by someone in the crowd. In which case they returned fire but in the process shot a lot of innocent civilians including women and children. Not a strictly proportional reaction.

Either way it's not good.

Any investigation is going to look at several things. One has been mentioned, no apparent evidence of them being fired upon. This coming from the US Army on the scene. Combat soldiers may know or thing or two about what to expect to see after a firefight. If they see a lot of dead civilians lying around shot in the back. They might draw obvious conclusions.  Also the unanimity of reports from the witnesses. It's a mistake to think all Iraqis are anti American. Somebody would have said so had the Blackwater people been attacked first.


Were the vehicles hit? Were any Blackwater personnel hit? Evidently not. Any weapons recovered? How many of the victims fit the profile of insurgents? etc etc.

You don't have to Sherlock Holmes to work out what happened that day. A disproportionate reaction to a perceived threat whether real or not perpetrated by people who are not soldiers and not subject to the same discipline as the US military. It's surpising something like this hasn't happened sooner.

You make my point, there is more to be discovered, a real and thorough investigation needs to be completed before the true facts are known and then, and only then should statements from others be offered as to what happened.

I am not defending them, nor am I saying they are innocent, and I do suspect that innocents did lose their lives but lets belay judgment until the appropriate time.  

All would do well to remember there have been documented cases of insurgents killing innocent civilians with the purpose of making it look like US troops did it.  There may have been some of that here aimed towards the Blackwater personel.

[x0847Marine]

There's a little history in the mid-east with regard to immunity bestowed upon "occupiers" and or their puppet surrogates, it shouldn't be a surprise folks in those parts are highly suspicious of these "above the law" mercs, they've had experience.

Under the Shah of Iran, elements of the US .gov were immunized against prosecution for violating Iranian laws.. just like these mercs enjoy immunity in Iraq. It became a big deal in Iran, one of many rally points that lead up to the 79 revolution.

Iranians believed this was to protect Americans involved in, what was then, alleged acts of "terrorism" committed by the CIA... and it turns out they were right... so theres a long history of mistrust in those parts of any group thats placed above the law.

The hypocrisy of the US singing the praises of "the rule of law", then allowing some to be above the law, is not lost on those it affects either, thats an easy one to call BS on.