Author Topic: Discussion  (Read 9008 times)

Offline Sloehand

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
Discussion
« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2007, 12:49:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Any of you (AH challenged) people that think the following:

1) It takes 2 to HO

2) HOs are easy to avoid

3) You are going to kill the guy that went for the HO easily

want to bet some money on it let me know and we will try it.


1) Yes it does, if you're using the strict 0-0 angle definition for Head-On, AND both pilots stay in that 0 angle to within guns range.  After that, even if one pilot breask, refusing the 0 angle and attempts to avoid, I'd still say it was an HO merge.

2) A lucky shot not withstanding, yes, in most cases they are.  This is by experience, and is based primarily on the combined level of quality of dedicated HO pilots in AH.  Certainly, an expert pilot and gunshot has a higher probability of hitting someone in an HO even if they try last minute avoidance.  However, by the very dynamics of this merge, the probability of avoiding getting shot is still fairly high.

3) More often than not yes, but there is absolutely no guarantee here.  Depends on how well each flies after the merge.  In my experience, at least a simple majority of dedicated HO pilots don't seem to recover as fast or as well as the pilot who successfully avoided the HO.  This just means there may be a slight reaction time edge to that pilot as the HO pilot suddenly realizes his HO failed and  reacts.  The other pilot still has to work for the kill and a very good opponent will know how to react quickly.
Jagdgeschwader 77

"You sleep safe in your beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do you harm."  - George Orwell
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Offline SteveBailey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2409
Discussion
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2007, 12:51:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Walock, gotta admit I'm a little confused. Today on country channel you were saying that you wouldn't be able to take your full PC rig with you to basic. I thought basic came BEFORE top security clearance?

Have to admit, I couldn't get the details because as soon as I asked you about it on country, you clammed up really tight.



:rofl             :aok

Offline SkyRock

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7758
Discussion
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2007, 12:58:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by toonces3
See, this is my problem with the 'HO'.

Here's a situation I see pretty much every night.

I see a con co-alt.  He sees me.  We turn into each other.  As we close, nose to nose, we are both faced with a choice.  We can press the merge nose to nose, as close as possible to avoid giving up an advantage to the other- relying on the other not to shoot...or we can maneuver such that we stay out of the gun envelope, but still try to retain an advantage.

In fact, I even saw this in the AvA tonite, against someone that I'm sure would say "I DIDN'T HO!"

In that situation, I would typically maneuver a bit out of plane to keep us from passing nose on, and to let you know I wasn't going to shoot.  Easily 95% of the time, the other guy takes a shot and I'm sure is telling himself "I didn't HO him, I took a front quarter shot because he wasn't right on my nose."

Do you see my point?  When two cons go nose on, any maneuver by one off of nose on opens up the HOLY front quarter shot.  But, you know, we all know what is REALLY a front quarter maneuvering shot, and what is taking a pot shot at a maneuvering con on the merge.

Almost every con I have ever passed on a merge had guns shooting.  For as much as we all complain about the HO, it happens almost every fight.

When I DON'T get HO'd, it's cause to , regardless of outcome.  The rest is just BS.

In short, if you're even thinking about shooting nose to nose in a 1 vs 1, you're a dweeb!  There is no decision to be had, just do not shoot because it is a cheap shot at best, and does not involve fighting.  Now, if you are worried about kills, then blast away, but you will be a dweeb!

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Sloehand

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
Discussion
« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2007, 12:58:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Ha, thats the definition of a HO not how many people it takes.  For example, when you twisting and turning with a couple of guys and a third dives in with the intent of HOing you it did not take two to HO.  You did not see him coming and you are probably too slow to do anything about it.  So, even though it took two planes lined up for it to be a HO, it only took 1 guy to force it.



This is a matter of definition.  If you're "twisting and turning with a couple of guys" then you cannot be in an HO with anyone at any point, BY THE DEFINITION OF AN H.O. THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

When you say  H.O. I believe most people are referring to a 1v1 "neutral merge" as the "initial" tactical manuveur in an engagement between "two" opponents.
Jagdgeschwader 77

"You sleep safe in your beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do you harm."  - George Orwell
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Offline Agent360

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
      • http://troywardphotography.com
Discussion
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2007, 01:24:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by toonces3
See, this is my problem with the 'HO'.

Here's a situation I see pretty much every night.

I see a con co-alt.  He sees me.  We turn into each other.  As we close, nose to nose, we are both faced with a choice.  We can press the merge nose to nose, as close as possible to avoid giving up an advantage to the other- relying on the other not to shoot...or we can maneuver such that we stay out of the gun envelope, but still try to retain an advantage.



There are a few problems with this way of handling the second and further merges. You can not go nose to nose every time. One must attempt to make the maneuver such that your "gaining" angles. When I see this happening it tells me the guy doesnt have or cant get any other option than to bring his nose into mine attempting to force either a ho or a non firing pass due to nose to nose.

Now, when I see this happening I KNOW that I can make an alternate turn out of plane that will not bring me nose to nose but give me angles. Once I get some angles its only a few more turns before I can get his six.

Spits like to do this a lot when they are getting out flown because its all they can do....point nose at other guys nose hoping for something.

When merging like this you have many choices. You don't have to go nose to nose. You can go under his nose, over his nose or lead turn. You can easily pass under or over and escape for a climb. You can as he passes nose to nose "reverse the circle" bringing him to you from the opposite side making him think here comes my shot. Before he is in guns range simpley pull up and roll over. You will be right on his six IF he went for guns.

Also remember...after the first merge there are no ho's. So if you get shot in the prop thats the luck of the draw.

ITs true that merging as close to the other plane as possible is best so as not go give up any angles. But sometimes you have to GIVE angles to get them. Don't be afraid to throw out some bait. They go for it every time.

Unless you are just totally screwed about to fall out of the sky you do have atleast two other options no matter what. These could be many things but the options are there.

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Discussion
« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2007, 02:04:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Agent360
There are a few problems with this way of handling the second and further merges. You can not go nose to nose every time. One must attempt to make the maneuver such that your "gaining" angles. When I see this happening it tells me the guy doesnt have or cant get any other option than to bring his nose into mine attempting to force either a ho or a non firing pass due to nose to nose.


Spits like to do this a lot when they are getting out flown because its all they can do....point nose at other guys nose hoping for something.



ITs true that merging as close to the other plane as possible is best so as not go give up any angles. But sometimes you have to GIVE angles to get them. Don't be afraid to throw out some bait. They go for it every time.

Unless you are just totally screwed about to fall out of the sky you do have atleast two other options no matter what. These could be many things but the options are there.


ok....in TA the other night, i was flying against what appered to be a very well flown f4u..i forget which model though....me in a p38l........anyway, it was a low alt knife fight....and we were nose to nose a lot......but that was mostly due to me not wanting to give him any "breathing room"...and neither one of us ever took the "ho" shot. it was a VERY fun fight in there......we traded advantages a few times, me gaining his six a couple times....and him doing some turns i didn't think a corsair could do, and landing on my six.........the fight went on till i ran outta gas.......

as far as giving angles to get em.....this i still can't seem to do, as i definitly die then........that's the only reason i stay in close and try to not let the other guy extend(run?)...eventually one of us makes a mistake...and sometimes when i'm in close like that, he'll often give me a fairly nice snapshot too......and i seem to do better with these than i do when i actually have time to aim.

anyway, just my 2 cents.........
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline WaRLoCkL

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
      • http://elitebf2aces.net
Discussion
« Reply #126 on: November 03, 2007, 02:18:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Walock, gotta admit I'm a little confused. Today on country channel you were saying that you wouldn't be able to take your full PC rig with you to basic. I thought basic came BEFORE top security clearance?

Have to admit, I couldn't get the details because as soon as I asked you about it on country, you clammed up really tight.



LOL maybe I wont paying attention to to country channel.

I guess maybe that could also be because this is my second time in, I have been out to long and must do basic again.

My first job was Satt Coms(31U) which i balive has changed to the MOS 25 catagory now, if u have any idea what that is. Basicly deals with communications using sattelites. My point is I dont have to act like a smart intelligent person to get approval from people in here.

This is just a game, but I guess for some it is a place to come and feel special outside normal life. I dont really know what it is, but the way people act on this forum, if they acted that way in real life they would definetly get no respect.

People that want to cuss and whine and kids that arnt theirs. People that degrade others and military for their own amusment and to prove their point. If they acted like this in real life then they would get your butts kicked quit alot and get no respect, it just amazes me how people that act that way in here, seem to be the ones everyone wants to look up to.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Discussion
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2007, 02:39:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by toonces3


I see a con co-alt.  He sees me.  We turn into each other.  As we close, nose to nose, we are both faced with a choice.  We can press the merge nose to nose, as close as possible to avoid giving up an advantage to the other-       ******** relying on the other not to shoot...********       or we can maneuver such that we stay out of the gun envelope, but still try to retain an advantage.

 


You gotta be careful about the whole "relying on the other guy not to shoot" thing.

I'm a firm believer in not firing on the nose-nose merge.  I'm also a firm believer in staying out of the other guys guns.  Not getting shot is YOUR responsibilty.  YOU need to stay out of his guns.  NOT FIRING is NOT his responsibility.  Any time you get in his firing area you need to expect to be shot.

It's really nice not having a guy come nose-nose with guns blazing, but you should never expect it.  That will only lead to one thing- the 200 HO rant.  Always expect to be shot, but feel free to be pleasantly surprised when you don't.

My deep, dark "secret"-  I NEVER merge with firing on the merge as my intention.  However, if on the merge I see the guy "expecting" to not be shot, careless about his position, in my guns or so close all it takes is a twitch to hit him, guess what??  I make the split second decision to shoot him.  Not a "big" shot, just a little spray, ideally not enough to damage him but enough to hopefully get him re-thinking how he does things.

In my opinion, he made a fundamental mistake- that of positioning himself where I can shoot him.  He deserves to be shot at.  To not shoot him is not doing him any favors.  It's allowing him to think that he was doing things fine, which he wasn't.  It will lead to sloppy merges where the outcome is determined not by lack of mistakes, but by who doesn't shoot when they should.

Classic examples of what I'm refering to are the guy who pulls up early in the merge, showing me his belly.  BANG!  The guy who is a little low/left of my nose, turning across in front of me.  BANG!

Merge decent, I won't shoot.  Merge wrong, you need to be told you did it wrong.

Stay outta my guns, you won't get shot.

Warlockl-  

Regardless of whether I agree with your points or not, I must say I appreciate your effort to improve your grammer and spelling.  It lead to me reading your post, and being able to concentrate on your message rather than being so distacted by trying to sort out the "code" of your previous jumbles.  I admit being so tripped up by many of your previous posts as to skip them and go on to the next.

Are you really military?  How do you want the military to be judged?  Can it / should it be judged by the quality of its members?  Do you think you don't reflect the military when you claim to be a part of it?  How does the military look when a third grader has better spelling and grammer than one of its members?  How does it look when the military member CHOOSES to have poor spelling and grammer?  Should we feel safe and protected?  Should we trust its members with weapons?  Expensive equipment?  Important decisions?  I'm not saying the military needs to be perfect, or that you need to be able to spell to be a good soldier.  I'm saying that you should TRY to be as perfect as possible.  Strive for perfection!  Strive to be elite!  Be proud!  No shame in falling short, as long as you give it your best effort!

You don't want to "take the time" to spell correctly?  Time this- type "honorable".  Now type "honerable".  Which took longer?  Which demands respect?  Which has no meaning (not even a word...)

Serve your (our) country.  I <<<>>> that!

Please do so in a manner that will honor our military.  Please do so in a manner that honors those that have gone before us, and those who have died for us.  Please present yourself in a manner that demands respect.  It's not just YOUR image anymore.

MtnMan
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Discussion
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2007, 02:43:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
Well first of all these people are not my Peers, they are simply people I play a GAME with.
 


That makes us your "peers by choice".  You choose to play the game.  You choose to be associated with us.  

MtnMan
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Yknurd

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1248
      • Satan Is Cool...Tell Your Friends
Discussion
« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2007, 02:55:31 PM »
Haha...this wOrLaCk character is a dork!


Look!  I mispelled your name.  I don't respect joo!
Drunky | SubGenius
Fat Drunk Bastards
B.A.A.H. - Black Association of Aces High

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Discussion
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2007, 04:52:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Queue long-winded Zazen post here.

-- Todd/Leviathn


I'm getting too long in the tooth for pontification. My flowing grey beard interferes with my keyboard...Sorry to disappoint...

I humbly relinquish my writer's quill to the youngsters who have evidently inherited the noble legacy of the WWII combat flight sim genre...:aok
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 05:12:42 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Discussion
« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2007, 05:16:40 PM »
Ho's are avoidable. Practice barrel rolls. 99% of collisions are accidental unless both parties are trying to collide. Then it's not an accident, at all. And there's no call for concern.

I'm sure this has all been said multiple times in this thread. ;)

Offline WaRLoCkL

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
      • http://elitebf2aces.net
Discussion
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2007, 05:22:07 PM »
Well this makes my point Mtnman, I honestly have never tried to imrpove my grammer for anyone on here, sometimes it comes out right, sometimes it comes out wrong.

My point is If i miss something I am not going to spend 20 minutes proofreading it for people in here.

No it does not make them my peers by choice, nore will I respect anyone on here because of said time they have invested in this game, it does not make them right or wrong. I get respect I give it, it is that simple if u cant handle that then dont read what I have to say.

Its sad that u guys think I am the problem because of improper grammer, yet u continue and encourge bashing of individuals on this game, for instance some of u deserve to get squarly popped in the mouth for the way u talk to 12 and 13 year old kids on here. I bet u wont do it in real life while his father is standing there. There is absolutly no reason for a grown man to come in here and act the way he does to people in this game.

Its a game and it should be FUN no matter WHAT happens to u, if u get HOED well its a game grab u a shiny new plane and go get sum.

Offline Simaril

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Discussion
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2007, 05:28:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
..... for instance some of u deserve to get squarly popped in the mouth for the way u talk to 12 and 13 year old kids on here. I bet u wont do it in real life while his father is standing there. There is absolutly no reason for a grown man to come in here and act the way he does to people in this game.

Its a game and it should be FUN no matter WHAT happens to u, if u get HOED well its a game grab u a shiny new plane and go get sum.


Here I agree 100%. No reason we can't treat each other with common decency and respect.
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

"Social Fads are for sheeple." - Meatwad

Offline SteveBailey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2409
Discussion
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2007, 06:21:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WaRLoCkL

Its sad that u guys think I am the problem because of improper grammer,  


You're a problem as much as a pinata is a problem at a birthday party.  Eventually, it is going to get smacked around until it's guts spill out. The pinata doesn't endlessly run its' mouth so it is a bit smarter than you, though.
The fact that your grammar is at a 3rd grade level is a point of amusement.  Clowns need a gimmick.     :aok