Author Topic: What if our Governement ....  (Read 609 times)

Offline wrag

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What if our Governement ....
« on: November 01, 2007, 01:36:31 PM »
Have you read Robert Heinlein?

In 1966, he wrote a thought-provoking science fiction novel called The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. In Heinlein's book, the moon is a penal colony run with an iron fist by the Authority.

Like American colonists, they finally got fed up and declared their independence.

They won the revolution, but discovered that designing and establishing a small and limited government was harder than they expected.

Professor Bernardo de la Paz, the Thomas Jefferson of their revolution, made one extraordinary proposal for making and keeping government small and limited.

When he heard the framers of their constitution propose a two house Congress, he proposed this:

"Instead of following tradition, I suggest one of legislators, another whose single duty it is to repeal laws. Let the legislators pass laws only with a two-thirds majority...while the repealers are able to cancel any law through a one-third minority. Preposterous? Think about it. If a bill is so poor that it cannot command two-thirds of your consents, is it not likely that it would make a poor law? And if a law is disliked by as many as one-third, is it not likely that you would be better off without it?"

Let the Heinlein Hypothesis sink in. One House needs a two-thirds vote to pass laws and regulations, a two-thirds vote for all government departments, programs, and projects, a two-thirds vote to spend and tax. The other House
needs only a one-third vote to repeal laws and regulations, a one-third vote to reduce or remove government departments, programs, and projects, a one-third vote to reduce or remove government spending and taxing.

What if the federal government were set up this way? What if the Senate needed a two-thirds vote to pass legislation and funding and taxes? What if the House of Representatives only needed a one-third vote to repeal? A one-third vote to reduce or remove the legislation and funding and taxes?

What if your state government were set up this way?
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Holden McGroin

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What if our Governement ....
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 01:49:35 PM »
I like Heinlein's ideas...

I have a few ideas for changes to our government;

1. For every law passed, 2 must be repealed.

2. All bills must be single issue: no riders.

3. Senators and Congressmen would be contrained to stay in their home states and districts, legislating on line.  
----
3a. I could have much improved access to my rep, and lobbists lives would be much more difficult.

3b. With the legistaure decentralized, nobody could take out the government with a dirty bomb or some virus.
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Offline Airscrew

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What if our Governement ....
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 02:03:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I like Heinlein's ideas...

I have a few ideas for changes to our government;

2. All bills must be single issue: no riders.

a good idea, also they should be 500 words or less, if you cant say it with one page its probably not worth the effort.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2007, 02:46:25 PM »
That book is probly tied for my favorite heinlien book.  Looking back on it.. I am sure that it and Ayn Rands stuff went a long way in helping me define how I think on politics.    

Everyone should read that book... great book.

I have always said that the problem is that we call em "lawmakers" soooo.. when they get in... they think their job is to make laws!

The more laws they make... the better they are doing their job right?

lazs

Offline Odee

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What if our Governement ....
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 03:12:54 PM »
I had thought, somewhere deep in my muddled mind, that that was how the US Gov used to work, way back when...?

I love the following: :aok  
Quote
1. For every law passed, 2 must be repealed.

2. All bills must be single issue: no riders.

3. Senators and Congressmen would be contrained to stay in their home states and districts, legislating on line.
----
3a. I could have much improved access to my rep, and lobbists lives would be much more difficult.

3b. With the legistaure decentralized, nobody could take out the government with a dirty bomb or some virus.

*sighs heavily*  But alas, I doubt the USA will last much longer than perhaps 75 more years at most, before we are completely, unalterablylost in the quagmire from the 70's onward. :furious
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Offline lasersailor184

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Re: What if our Governement ....
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2007, 03:24:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Have you read Robert Heinlein?

In 1966, he wrote a thought-provoking science fiction novel called The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. In Heinlein's book, the moon is a penal colony run with an iron fist by the Authority.

Like American colonists, they finally got fed up and declared their independence.

They won the revolution, but discovered that designing and establishing a small and limited government was harder than they expected.

Professor Bernardo de la Paz, the Thomas Jefferson of their revolution, made one extraordinary proposal for making and keeping government small and limited.

When he heard the framers of their constitution propose a two house Congress, he proposed this:

"Instead of following tradition, I suggest one of legislators, another whose single duty it is to repeal laws. Let the legislators pass laws only with a two-thirds majority...while the repealers are able to cancel any law through a one-third minority. Preposterous? Think about it. If a bill is so poor that it cannot command two-thirds of your consents, is it not likely that it would make a poor law? And if a law is disliked by as many as one-third, is it not likely that you would be better off without it?"

Let the Heinlein Hypothesis sink in. One House needs a two-thirds vote to pass laws and regulations, a two-thirds vote for all government departments, programs, and projects, a two-thirds vote to spend and tax. The other House
needs only a one-third vote to repeal laws and regulations, a one-third vote to reduce or remove government departments, programs, and projects, a one-third vote to reduce or remove government spending and taxing.

What if the federal government were set up this way? What if the Senate needed a two-thirds vote to pass legislation and funding and taxes? What if the House of Representatives only needed a one-third vote to repeal? A one-third vote to reduce or remove the legislation and funding and taxes?

What if your state government were set up this way?


I'll be honest.  One thing I REALLY want to see is that Ron Paul gets elected, and starts vetoing every bill that comes his way.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Airscrew

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What if our Governement ....
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 03:26:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Odee
 But alas, I doubt the USA will last much longer than perhaps 75 more years at most, before we are completely, unalterablylost in the quagmire from the 70's onward. :furious

You give it that long?  some days I look around and I get the feeling we got maybe 20 years before everything just falls apart.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2007, 03:27:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airscrew
You give it that long?  some days I look around and I get the feeling we got maybe 20 years before everything just falls apart.


I see the catalyst happening within 2 Presidential cycles.
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8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline crockett

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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 03:41:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airscrew
You give it that long?  some days I look around and I get the feeling we got maybe 20 years before everything just falls apart.


I say 20 to 50 years. The min the govt stopped being run for the people, by the people we were doomed to fail. At this point, it's pretty much a govt run by and for big business and special intrest.

If you sit back and watch what goes on in our govt, how much of what they do, can you honestly say actually has benefits for you personally or even for someone you may know?

Most of the bills passed in this day and age benefit select groups in this country and nothing more. They toss little scraps out to the people here and there, but nothing of real intent.

The people of this country are becoming little more than the serf's of the middle ages. The only difference is the people are tricked into thinking they actually have a say in what goes on.
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Offline bsdaddict

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What if our Governement ....
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2007, 03:44:19 PM »
I like Heinlein's idea there, certainly would prevent tyranny by majority.  Working with what we've got I'd rather see term limits, the line item veto and an end to corporate campaign contributions.  That'd have the best chance at fixing things without junking the constitution and starting over.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 03:58:32 PM by bsdaddict »

Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2007, 03:53:24 PM »
Well when I see presidential primarys that are being run and the biggest concern by the parties and the media is finding someone who is electable instead of finding someone that's worthy of my vote and who is good for the country.   So far all I've seen is who has raised the most money, who runs the best ads, who had the best sound bites, who looked the best at the debates.   They (the party machines) arent looking for the best statesman, or the best person to run this country, they are looking to win a contest so they can be in charge and get all their buddies jobs

Offline bsdaddict

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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2007, 03:57:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airscrew
Well when I see presidential primarys that are being run and the biggest concern by the parties and the media is finding someone who is electable instead of finding someone that's worthy of my vote and who is good for the country.   So far all I've seen is who has raised the most money, who runs the best ads, who had the best sound bites, who looked the best at the debates.   They (the party machines) arent looking for the best statesman, or the best person to run this country, they are looking to win a contest so they can be in charge and get all their buddies jobs

that's our two-party system for ya!  you're right, it's not about electing the candidate who's best for the country, it's about beating the other side.  

I'll add an end to ballot access restrictions to my list of changes a couple posts up...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:05:04 PM by bsdaddict »

Offline texasmom

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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2007, 04:33:06 PM »
sounds interesting. i'll look for it to read.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2007, 04:48:40 PM »
Heinlien has some great ideas and he has had a big impact on my ideas. His concept of self reliance, self respect and responsibility that he expressed so well in his books was something that I really took to heart when I started reading his work in High School.
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Offline wrag

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What if our Governement ....
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2007, 04:50:30 PM »
Another good book is ...

Pallas by L. Neil Smith

But last I checked it kinda hard to find.


http://www.amazon.com/Pallas-L-Neil-Smith/dp/0812509048

And some others you MIGHT find of interest............

http://www.amazon.com/Lever-Action-L-Neil-Smith/dp/0967025915

http://www.amazon.com/Lever-Action-L-Neil-Smith/dp/0967025915
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:54:50 PM by wrag »
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.