Author Topic: Looking for a good .40 Semi Auto, Price is not an issue (Read 1809 times)

Halo · « **Reply #60 on:** November 15, 2007, 06:15:49 PM »

(quote) Regarding the .357 Sig (to side-step for a moment):

Halo, did it seem to be more of a "snap" than the typical "buck" when you fired it? I've shot a .40 Smith before and didn't object to the recoil at all. But I've been eyeballing a Sig P226 in .357 as my first auto pistol. The one comment a lot of people make about it was the recoil was very abrupt. Almost to the point of being uncomfortable and nowhere near the "buck" or "push" they get from other auto calibers. (unquote)

Snap vs. buck is a good way to describe the .357 Sig and .40 recoil, at least in my limited experience with them. The .40 and .45 ACP to me feel solid and predictable. The .357 feels snappish or snippish with more muzzle bucking; I didn't like firing the .357 Sig at all. I am more comfortable and accurate with the .40 and .45.

As others have said, I hope you can rent a couple guns in the calibers you're considering before buying any. Nothing like hands-on to find what does the best for your requirements.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #61 on:** November 15, 2007, 07:38:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Terror
My point is not that I can get 350,000 rounds through a Glock, (which has been demonstrated, BTW), but that shooting +P+ ammo will not shorten the life of a Glock for an average shooter.

T

But it will, by design of the ammo. "Pressures" have nothing to do with this.

Terror · « **Reply #62 on:** November 15, 2007, 08:30:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
But it will, by design of the ammo. "Pressures" have nothing to do with this.

So if pressures have nothing to do with it, then would you kindly explain how a "+p+" ammo will significantly reduce the life of a given firearm?

T.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #63 on:** November 15, 2007, 08:32:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Terror
So if pressures have nothing to do with it, then would you kindly explain how a "+p+" ammo will significantly reduce the life of a given firearm?

T.

Again. BARREL wear.

flakbait · « **Reply #64 on:** November 16, 2007, 01:47:02 AM »

Thanks for the suggestion, FX1, but you can do the same switch with a Sig in .40 S&W. The .40 Smith I fired was a Glock, and had a trigger pull akin to a staple-gun. I wasn't crazy about the grip angle, either. I know the Tupperware Warriors Club loves the Glock, its simply one I'm not partial to. To boot, several folks I trust have nothing but praise for the Sig, with the always-added "Provided you can afford it!" LOL

Thanks for the comments, Halo. Next time I find myself at a range that offers rentals (local range doesn't rent... yet) I'll give it a whang and see what I think. At the least, I'll end up with a P226 in .40 Short & Weak and maybe .357 Sig barrel for it.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]

Terror · « **Reply #65 on:** November 16, 2007, 07:22:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again. BARREL wear.

And what exactly is the difference between a standard 9mm round and a 9mm +P+ round that would cause excessive barrel wear?

T.

lazs2 · « **Reply #66 on:** November 16, 2007, 07:46:35 AM »

terror.. I am not that concerned about barrel wear but... what would cause more "wear" in +P ammo over regular would be errosion of the throat by the increased/hotter gas. What that means is that the first part of the rifling will start to wash out and the bullet will "skip" a little before the rifling grabs.

Also.. jacketed bullets will wear out barrels much faster than lead ones and blocks.. like most semi autos, don't really like lead bullets.. revolvers love em tho. 90% of the ammo I shoot in handguns is cast lead slugs.

+P's operate at higher pressure too so the slide and frame will be battered more.

frode.. the transfer bar simply work hardened like all metal does.. I don't think this is common.. it is the first one I have heard of and it is cheap and easy to fix in any case.

lazs

Terror · « **Reply #67 on:** November 16, 2007, 09:15:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
terror.. I am not that concerned about barrel wear but... what would cause more "wear" in +P ammo over regular would be errosion of the throat by the increased/hotter gas. What that means is that the first part of the rifling will start to wash out and the bullet will "skip" a little before the rifling grabs.

Also.. jacketed bullets will wear out barrels much faster than lead ones and blocks.. like most semi autos, don't really like lead bullets.. revolvers love em tho. 90% of the ammo I shoot in handguns is cast lead slugs.

+P's operate at higher pressure too so the slide and frame will be battered more.

frode.. the transfer bar simply work hardened like all metal does.. I don't think this is common.. it is the first one I have heard of and it is cheap and easy to fix in any case.

lazs

I agree. Barrel wear using +P+ ammo in a Glock is not a concern. The Glock was designed with hotter, higher pressure ammunition in mind. Yes, it will probably wear out a bit faster with the hotter, higher pressure ammo, but not to any concern of the average shooter.

Lead bullets are not recommended in a Glock.

T.

Toad · « **Reply #68 on:** November 16, 2007, 09:19:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Terror
So if pressures have nothing to do with it, then would you kindly explain how a "+p+" ammo will significantly reduce the life of a given firearm?

T.

I own a Glock 17, so I am not anti-Glock.

You should be aware of what is being called "kb!" in Glocks shooting overpressure loads. Note I said overpressure. Still, it's something to note.

kb!

Terror · « **Reply #69 on:** November 16, 2007, 11:23:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
I own a Glock 17, so I am not anti-Glock.

You should be aware of what is being called "kb!" in Glocks shooting overpressure loads. Note I said overpressure. Still, it's something to note.

kb!

A case failure can occur in any semi-auto fire-arm. Note:HK USP45 It seems to occur most frequently in larger caliber firearms using reloads or remanufactured ammo.

Either weakend brass from multiple processings or extreme over-charge seem to be the main ingredient in the failures. Also, "bullet setback" has also been noted as a potential cause. (bullet setback is where the bullet gets pushed back into the case after multiple chamberings of the round and ejecting it. bullet setback causes extreme over-pressure conditions)

Also, the Glock's wide chamber throat leaves a small unsupported region of brass right above the ramp. This is the area that fails during a "kb!".

Using factory new ammunition seems to be the main solution to avoiding a "kb!".

T.

Toad · « **Reply #70 on:** November 16, 2007, 11:35:48 AM »

Quote

Also, the Glock's wide chamber throat leaves a small unsupported region of brass right above the ramp. This is the area that fails during a "kb!".

This is the problem area and high pressure loads are the culprits. Common sense tells me that a steady diet of +p+ loads might eventually be a problem.

That article gives no data on just what the pressure was on the loads that did cause a kb! in Glocks. So it may have to be an extremely high pressure to cause a malfunction.

But it still highlights a question in my mind. If you have to go to max pressure in a 9mm to get .40 or .45 performance levels...why not just use a .40 or .45?

Nilsen · « **Reply #71 on:** November 16, 2007, 02:05:48 PM »

Had a Glock for a few years. Ok gun. When i pressed the trigger a bullet came out the other end every time (unless the thingy in the grip was empty) and hit what i aimed at (if i aimed good enough).

lazs2 · « **Reply #72 on:** November 16, 2007, 02:14:30 PM »

When we speak of jacketed vs lead bullets we are speaking wear and tear and cost.

for reloaders.. the revolver is still king. there is no unsupported brass.. there is no issue with bullet shape or even pressure.. there is no issue with lead or jacketed slugs.

there is no issue with trying to find the brass your gun just tossed away to the range or CSI... also... you can reload the ammo for a third of what factory ammo costs and half of what jacketed reloads cost...

this is not even factoring in lost or damaged brass and the fact that auto brass is some of the weakest I have ever seen... 44 mag brass is tough!

I was fortunate to have have access to range brass... I have about 14,000 once fired 45 auto cases.. don't care if they get lost or damaged at this point.

lazs

flakbait · « **Reply #73 on:** November 16, 2007, 02:19:17 PM »

Somewhere on that site is an article describing why Glocks pop. It usually happens in Glocks chambered for .40 S&W because the chamber is reamed out a few thousandths too large (.002-3 if my memory isn't off). That, combined with the lack of full support above the feed ramp, triggers a bulged case on occasion. But a round that was double-charged at the factory (or in your press) could blow the gun apart. I know that site has an article regarding the Portland PD experience with a double-charged factory round in their .40 Glocks. The author of the kB! article stated he checked the chamber spec against his .357 Sig barrel (from Glock) and found the .40 Smith was cut a tad big. Yet his .357 Sig barrel was bang on the money, even a little tight. It wasn't solely a large chamber, or solely a lack of case support, but a combo of the two that could cause problems.

Now if I could only find the bloody thing again!

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]

SIG220 · « **Reply #74 on:** November 19, 2007, 04:37:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Terror, again, the 9mm round is a worthless round. Why do you think the US is attempting to revert back to the .45acp? Actually, your Glock is NOT rated for +P+ ammo. But it's your gun, I'd look into a new barrel and spring.

Masherbrum:

You obviously have no first hand knowledge or experience in using Glocks.

Here is what my Glock's owner's manual says about ammo:

6. Ammunition Specifications for Glock Pistols

Glock pistols are designed to be fired with NATO or SAAMI specification ammunition. Therefore the following guidelines and specifications are provided so that proper ammunition will be selected for use in Glock pistols to assure proper functioning.

Any deviation from these specifications may lead to improper functioning and possibly void the warranty on Glock pistols.

Glock 9mm pistols will function properly with the new generation of 9x19mm ammunition including all +P+ and 147 grain subsonic ammunition currently in use or being introduced in the United States.

Minimum (lower limit) specifications for 9mm Ammunition to be used in Glock Pistols:

Bullet Weight 115 grains / 7.5 grams
Muzzle Velocity 1180 fps / 350 meters/sec

Maximum (upper limit) pressures for 9x19mm ammunition to be used in Glock pistols should not exceed 43,500 pounds per square inch/ 3000 BAR

You really do yourself a severe discredit, by making such obviously false statements. You are damaging your own credibility badly by doing this.

Here is a photo of my Glock 17. The only ammo that I ever shoot in it are the two Winchester +P+ Law Enforcement loads in the picture next to the gun. I have a dealer friend who sells this ammo to me at the really cheap Law Enforcement prices, even though he really is not supposed to even sell me the ammo period.

My gun still shoots and looks like new.

With Glock being the number one Law Enforcement pistol in the United States, it is absolutely ludicrous for you to claim that it is not able to shoot Law Enforcement level ammunition that is marketed specifically to police departments for use in such pistols.

SIG 220