Author Topic: Aerodynamics websites  (Read 1785 times)

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2007, 04:54:31 AM »


Someone is about as fanatical as kurfy, but not one tenth as intelligent.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 05:02:20 AM by Bronk »
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2007, 04:59:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
There's plenty of flight test data, done with a data tube independent of the airplane's pitot tube to substantiate speed. There's several Navy tests that show the F6F-5 doing 391 mph in MIL power. Another TAIC test shows (Report #17) shows a max speed of 409 mph in WEP with water injection. Grumman tests also show speeds in excess of 400 mph. HTC has seen these and more.

As to the pitot tube issue; the air speed indicator showed a slower than actual speed. However, if that were modeled, E6B should show true air speed being different than the indicator. It doesn't.

You can read these reports online, courtesy of Mike Williams and Neil Sterling.

Here's a few links.

TAIC Report No. 17

Navy Test


Another Navy test

My regards,

Widewing
Maybe when the rest of the navy ac are updated they will address this.
Widewing did you also mention at one time, something about the FM2's low alt performance being off?
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2007, 07:37:00 AM »
Pappy,

You could always post the page of the F4U flight manual that gives the stall speeds under clean and full flap conditions. Compare the reduction in stall speed with that of the 190 at full flaps vs clean.

IIRC, no one here really solved the question of WHY the F4U's flaps are so darned effective, just all the calculations and the flight manual supported it.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2007, 09:00:41 AM »
Anyone know what airfoil shape the FW190 used?  I know the Corsair's and the Spitfire's.

EDIT:  Looked it up.  Spitfire used the NACA 2213 (root) and 2209.4 (tip), Corsair and FW190 used the NACA 23015 (root) and 23009 tip.

I don't know that these guys would be swayed by your mathmatical "proof" if they buy into annecdotal information so easily.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:14:06 AM by Stoney74 »

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2007, 10:59:46 AM »
Kind of surprised to see that both the F4U and 190 used the same airfoil. I'm guessing this refers to cross-section? What these guys don't seem to understand is that while the F4U's odd wing configuration may have been solely intended to length the landing gear without sacrificing strength, it STILL had any number of odd side-effects on flight performance (such as decreasing drag, poor elevator authority when all three wheels were on the ground, etc).

Also, the flight manuals were written by the guys who designed and built the things and knew their operational tolerances. If the dweebs on that board are so dense they refuse to believe documentation written specifically with pilot safety in mind (meaning the estimates may be somewhat conservative and the actual stall speeds might have been somewhat lower than indicated) that ALREADY shows a significant increase in lift with flaps deployed, they're not worth arguing with.

Either that, or maybe we should just sic WW on 'em from the start. ;)
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2007, 02:04:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SgtPappy
So they responded with this:

http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000409169664360027
I argued that this only works for a constant airfoil, while the F4U's airfoil in combo with its thrust features allow it to turn better.


Merely arguing that since the NACA report shows a higher Clmax with a split flap than a plain flap shows that these guys do not know what they're talking about.  There are so many other factors in play--its a prime example of folks knowing just enough to be dangerous.

For example, combining a tapered wing planform with a tapered chord thickness ensures the wing tip stalls before the root, which explains why almost all aircraft in AH will roll over on their back in a flash when stalled.  Reynolds number (a fluid dynamics term that describes flow characteristics) has a huge impact on wing section performance.  Aspect ratio can have a huge impact on induced drag differences, which become extremely important in high lift conditions as induced drag skyrockets.  The airspeeds at which flaps can be used is also important.  Gross weight, wing area, wing loading, Clmax at different reynolds numbers, all of these things impact turn performance during different conditions of flight.  Even altitude plays a huge part, as lower dynamic pressure (typically at higher altitudes) impacts performance.

The answer to your question is extremely complicated and its difficult sometimes to find out some of the values you need for those equations as some WWII aircraft possess voluminous amounts of recorded and maintained documentation and some do not.  Even some flight test data is questionable as alluded to above, and not nearly enough of it from different sources is consistent.

Are there situations where a Corsair can outturn a Spit 14--absolutely, even without flaps.  Could we find a flight condition where 190 flaps are more "effective" than a Corsairs flaps--perhaps though I doubt it.

If you really want to get into some research, I can recommend some of the books I've been reading lately.  Regardless though, I think you're efforts may be wasted on those that want to cling to anecdotal evidence.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2007, 02:11:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Kind of surprised to see that both the F4U and 190 used the same airfoil. I'm guessing this refers to cross-section?


The NACA 23000 series of airfoil sections was extremely popular at the time due to NACA proclaiming it as a sort of wonder-airfoil.  Relatively low drag, good lift/drag ratio, low pitching moments, etc.  It was used on more WWII aircraft than any other single airfoil section.  Its also used on Dale's RV-8 and other modern aircraft.

But, as I stated above, there are so many more factors in play that affect the wing's characteristics than simply the airfoil.

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2007, 12:06:20 AM »
Thanks once again all.
I recently picked up a book on aircraft piston engines spanning from the 1920s to the 1950's, so I'm getting there.

Which book was it that you would recommend, Stoney?
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2007, 06:23:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SgtPappy
Thanks once again all.
I recently picked up a book on aircraft piston engines spanning from the 1920s to the 1950's, so I'm getting there.

Which book was it that you would recommend, Stoney?


For simply an aerodynamics primer, I'd recommend "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators".  I'm sure there are other opinions about this book...perhaps there are other recommendations from the rest of the forum readers here.

To learn about airfoils and how they work, how flaps affect them, the single source book is "Theory of Wing Sections" by Abbott and Von Doenhoff.  This is basically an edited version of NACA report 824, and simply regurges all the info that NACA came up with.  A nice complement to "Theory of Wing Sections" is GA Airfoils by Harry Riblett.

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2007, 08:42:59 PM »
i'll be sure to check those out, if i can find them.

the museum i volunteer at hopefully has them. thanks again!
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2007, 12:00:26 PM »
lol, all gamers, the whole lot of you.
Quote
Soren

The difference between Crumpp and the people at the Aces High II Forum is that Crumpp has actual real life experience and expert knowledge on the subject. Crumpp unlike the guys at AHII works with these a/c daily, currently he works on a an actual FW-190 (White 1), you can visit here:  Focke-Wulf FW 190 - White 1
Quote
Games are hardly relevant.  They are mass market media attempting to make a profit.  IMHO, the games should be left where they belong, in the toybox.

All the best,

Crumpp


Don't you know that:
Quote
Soren

Fw-190 Dora-9, the best piston engined fighter to be produced in quantity during WW2. It possessed better maneuverability in all aspects of flight compared to virtually every late war Allied fighter except for the Spitfire Mk.XIV.


http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-fighter-iii-614-71.html

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2007, 12:03:47 PM »
Maybe we should get Bodhi to have a nice talk with Mr. Crumpp.

Or maybe Widewing can ejumacate Soren on all the aspects where the F4U-4 pwns the Dora.

:rolleyes:
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2007, 12:13:43 PM »
Yep, Bodhi was one of the first people that sprang to mind.  Though there are a number of others.

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2007, 12:56:45 PM »
Although I do have to say that Pappy may have taken the wrong approach. I think he focused too much on how performance was in the game, rather than the data HTC actually USED to determine performance in the game.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2007, 08:39:02 PM »
The "expert" has spoken,
Quote
...full flaps will not improve any aircraft's turning performance.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-fighter-iii-614-73.html#post292941
:huh