So how is our P-39 coming?

[Motherland]

Originally posted by Yossarian
I'm talking about all the cities that were destroyed both with that f***ed up carpet bombing residential areas with incendiaries at low level, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Everything but the dropping of the atom bombs could have been done with existing B17's and B24's if B29's would not have become available. They didnt really change anything.

Originally posted by Rich46yo
And add to the list of MA available aircraft that nobody flies?

First of all, the MA=weakest link. No where near as fun as FSO or scenarios, which should be considered before 'what will be flown in the MA's. If you want to use the 'it wont be used in the MA' logic, we dont need anything else whatsoever, because LA's, Spits, and NIKI's will be flown more than anything else. BTW, Ive been seeing a lot of B25H's and even C's, for those who said it would become a hangar queen.

Oh, and Id definately use the He-111. Much better defensive armament than the Ju-88. And if all of you want a perked bomber....


Ju. 87G-2!

[splitatom]

Originally posted by Motherland
Everything but the dropping of the atom bombs could have been done with existing B17's and B24's if B29's would not have become available. They didnt really change anything. [/B]

one problem with the b 17 and 24 they couldnt fly to tokyo and back like the b 29 could

[splitatom]

Originally posted by stephen
I looks like a brewster buffalo, known as the worst Naval fighter in US history, and reportedly no less than Jimmy Thatch said "Any commander sending the Buffalo into combat should report the pilot as missing as soon as it leaves the ground."

i belive the buffalo had the first air to air kill during ww2 flown by a fighter piolet in the us army/navy not sure on that but it was at pearl harbor (that does not inclued the fighters flown by americans in other countrys aka flying tigers, americans in the raf and so on)

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by moot
That's the thing, for most of WWII, the B29 wasn't so important.  The 262 was.

                    The 262 appeared in such small numbers, and in an airforce under such severe stress, that it had a virtually nil impact on the war.

                    We destroyed an entire country with the B-29. Also we used them effectively against Japanese targets in China and S/E Asia. Eventually over 2,700 B-29s were built. The 3 squadrons of the 9'th HBG themselves flew over 2,000 sorties in 6 mos of 1945 alone.

                   While the B-29 was activated for service beginning in April 1944, basing in India, the first actual attack using them was in June 1944 when a total of 98 29s launched against Jap rail targets in Thailand. Operation Matterhorn alone accounted for over 3,000 sorties on 49 separate missions.

                B-29s flew over 20,000 sorties in WW-ll against Industrial, urban, transportation, and military targets. It was also used effectively to drop mines around Japanese harbors, helping strangle the Jap war machine and starve the population.

             The 29 had an "actual impact on the war" so far in excess compared to the ME-262 to suggest anything else is laughable. While almost 1,400 262s were built very few of them actually saw action due to mechanical defects, a lack of pilots, and Allied success in destroying the Reich fuel industry. The Luftwaffe never had more then 200 actually flyable with pilots and gas for them. And their record was what? 150 allied aircraft shot down with 100 262s lost to enemy fire?

                         The 262 really had "zero" impact on the war.

[Redlegs]

If it hasn't hapenned so far, it's porbably not going to happen. Let It Go!!!

[splitatom]

Originally posted by Rich46yo
And their record was what? 150 allied aircraft shot down with 100 262s lost to enemy fire?

the acual numbers of alied aircraft shot down was like 1500 and i dont know how many 262 were lost:mad:

[stephen]

its a shame that perk value's have less to do with war production, and everything to do with the popularity of an aircraft.

simply put the B-29 is a plane that WILL be in this game sooner or later, so all this talk is really wasted on the ears of HT and crew, that said the only way to assure its timly entry into this game is for you guys to keep up the banter.

America was a big contributer of aircraft and despite the lack of early war winners, we caught up fast,and this is the reason america is so well represented in this game and will continue to be.
We simply built so many war winning A/C B-29, A-26, P47/51/38 etc etc etc.   that it would be a crime not to have them...as they made such an impact.

the german rides really fall into another catagory as after 1943 they where falling back and where hard pressed to come out with large numbers of superior A/C hence the 262 and 163's huge perk value, but admitidly they where far superior and so should be included "and are here"

I say america isnt very well represented in that the best bombersin  our invintory are being left out, no other country can really say the same in this game, outside of italy and they suck anyway lol.

[Motherland]

Originally posted by stephen
I say america isnt very well represented in that the best bombersin  our invintory are being left out, no other country can really say the same in this game, outside of italy and they suck anyway lol.

Eh, what? The United States isnt very well represented in bombers?!?!? Well, we have the B17, the B24, the B25C, the B25H, the B26, the SBD, the TBM, the P38( )... they arent well represented?
Britain has the Lancaster... thats it...
Germany has the Ar234, the Ju-88, and the Stuka, thats it...
Japan has the Ki-67, the B5N, and the D3A, thats it...
Russia has the Il-2... thats it...

So, 5 bombers for the US, compared to an average of 2 per every other country? And Italy doesnt even have any? Wow.
Germany has the Ju87G2 left out. That would probably be the best tankbuster in the game.
Germany also has the He-111 left out, which was a very important part of the BoB and Op:Barbarossa, which, by the way, was the largest invasion of military history.
Japan has the G4M and the Judy left out.
Russia is missing two very good bombers, the Pe-2 and the Tu-2 (the Tu-2, IIRC, is faster and has a larger bombload than the B26)

Not well represented my arse.

Originally posted by Rich46yo
The 262 appeared in such small numbers, and in an airforce under such severe stress, that it had a virtually nil impact on the war.

Do you actually know the numbers of 262's made? Its around 1400 (apparantly you do, you just want to overlook the fact thats almost over half of what the 29 was produced... by a much smaller industry that was being bombed day and night...) . Thats not a lot compared to, say the 109, with 33,000, but thats still a fair amount of aircraft, considering the small time that they served.

                    We destroyed an entire country with the B-29. Also we used them effectively against Japanese targets in China and S/E Asia. Eventually over 2,700 B-29s were built. The 3 squadrons of the 9'th HBG themselves flew over 2,000 sorties in 6 mos of 1945 alone.

                   While the B-29 was activated for service beginning in April 1944, basing in India, the first actual attack using them was in June 1944 when a total of 98 29s launched against Jap rail targets in Thailand. Operation Matterhorn alone accounted for over 3,000 sorties on 49 separate missions.

                B-29s flew over 20,000 sorties in WW-ll against Industrial, urban, transportation, and military targets. It was also used effectively to drop mines around Japanese harbors, helping strangle the Jap war machine and starve the population.

Fair points. Nothing to say.

             The 29 had an "actual impact on the war" so far in excess compared to the ME-262 to suggest anything else is laughable. While almost 1,400 262s were built very few of them actually saw action due to mechanical defects, a lack of pilots, and Allied success in destroying the Reich fuel industry. The Luftwaffe never had more then 200 actually flyable with pilots and gas for them. And their record was what? 150 allied aircraft shot down with 100 262s lost to enemy fire?

                         The 262 really had "zero" impact on the war.

First. The K/D was about 5/1 (509 kills conservatively to about 100 losses).

Its easy to say the 262 'had no impact in the war', because Germany lost either way. But, from a different perspective, its still easy to say that the 29 had no impact on the war, because Japan would have lost either way.

The B29 dropped the first atom bomb. The 262 was the first jet fighter, was on of the first swept wing aircraft, and was flown by Kurt Welter, who, to this day, is still one of the highest scoring jet aces.

In summary... theres no point to arguing 'which had the bigger impact on the war', because in both cases, the impact on the Second World War is negligable. But, both had a very large impact after the war, and that is why they are really remembered.



And, as a follow-up-
The He-111 had a bigger impact on the war than either.
The P-39 had a bigger impact on the war than either.
The Tu-2 had a bigger impact on the war than either.
The Yak-1 had a bigger impact on the war than either.

[stephen]

As I said represented in #s? yes, represented by war winning plane types? NO....the best is given to the other country's, you said it yourself, KI-67 for japan, ju88 and arado234 for germany, and lancaster for england, all represent the best that that particular country could do by wars end, not so in the american camp, our best bomber is gathering dust by the wayside, while people scream "it isnt a fair plane in the MA!", and to think of it, it isnt fair {the b29} and thats why we won the war....

So again ill say, technilogicaly american bombers are under represented in this game, accept for perhaps the b26, and 24....our best is in the hanger still, dont believe me? wait till they unleash the 29,... it'll be a whole new world

[bg108]

what kind of weapons? i would like to see the b29 with little boy nuke for 1k perks.

[Motherland]

Originally posted by stephen

So again ill say, technilogicaly american bombers are under represented in this game, accept for perhaps the b26, and 24....our best is in the hanger still, dont believe me? wait till they unleash the 29,... it'll be a whole new world

The only to bombers that we dont have that I know of are the A26 and the B29. The B17 and the B24 were two of the best and most important bombers of the war, and are in game. The TBM has the most CV-launchable firepower, and a bombsite. The B25 was and is a very fast and useful mid-war bomber and ingame is a good tankbuster. All of the 'American greats' are here, IMO.

[bg108]

what about the gigant? i knw the c47 is in the game, but it is really ill-equipped if even one trooper dies. so why not develop it, that way, there is a quick way of dropping about a hundred troopres, though requiring landing (i can land a c47 in a field with hedgerows, i could put down a gigant), or you could use it for paratroopers or landing panzers. would be interesting to see how fully automated tanks reacted. Remember, the gigant was huge. it could carry armored troop carriers, tanks, even artillery pieces. if were putting in a us bomber and us fighter, and only a german experimental fighter, why not a good trooper? lets just face it, many ppl have been frustrated by the many problems with the c47, including slow drops, being targeted by many fighters (i think the me 323 gigant had a few guns on it), and at times, low power (get frustrated by the engines on the c47 requiring so much space to sped up, like speed, but takes awhile to slow down). long and short, put a gigant on ah, and fiters will either make a yellow stain in their bubble canopy, or or take it as fair game, concidering how easily the c47 s\

[Motherland]

Rather have a Ju-52. Had a HUGE impact on the war (dropped paratroops for the airborne invasion of Crete, for example), and had a defensive armament (albeit a small one).

[C(Sea)Bass]

Originally posted by Motherland
The only to bombers that we dont have that I know of are the A26 and the B29. The B17 and the B24 were two of the best and most important bombers of the war, and are in game. The TBM has the most CV-launchable firepower, and a bombsite. The B25 was and is a very fast and useful mid-war bomber and ingame is a good tankbuster. All of the 'American greats' are here, IMO.

Do not forget the Helldiver. Better in nearly every way than the STD.

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by splitatom
the acual numbers of alied aircraft shot down was like 1500 and i dont know how many 262 were lost:mad:

                           Please post your supportive links as I am going mostly from memory. If you post a supportive link then I will research it myself. 1,500 enemy airplanes downed by 262s? I doubt it. It did have the potential to be a war winning weapon, no doubt bout that, but that still doesnt mean it actually was.

                       Theres no need for little angry faces. Im 50yo and at least "I" am having an adult conversation.

                       If you cant support your statement then Im going to bow out as this was a P-39 thread not a B-29 one.

                      The P-39 would probably be an interesting aircraft because AH reminds me of the air war on the eastern front due to where on the altitude table most of it is fought. Many of the late war fighters really shine up high but things are less clear cut under 12,000'.