Author Topic: Nazis make peace with UK, what then?  (Read 2491 times)

Offline lazs2

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2007, 10:03:29 AM »
dowding.. do the research..  how much of japans resources do you think you were tying down in burma?   How many carriers and ships and troops and.. how much did you contribute to the island hopping campaign?   I didn't see a lot of british ships and carriers and brit carrier planes and troops landing on those beaches.

lazs

Offline TimRas

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2007, 10:05:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
Stalin was a leader of unquestionable quality..........but my prime minister is a raving queen compared to Stalin....I'm actualy serious

Don't say you don't have a Daddy ? "Uncle Joe">"Uncle Adolf">"Uncle Gordon"? :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 10:13:21 AM by TimRas »

Offline B@tfinkV

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2007, 11:19:21 AM »
Tim if i was to choose who i would want to die for?

stalin - battle to end all battles with leader on the field, pretty heroic and historic

brown - very rich, fat, ugly, womanizer who reeks of coffee and bagals in a war he is fighting from the other side of the world behind armed gaurd...not what i call a glorious way to go

never voted here, and never will till i see a leader i want to vote for.




Quote
Originally posted by Greebo
If the UK's out of the war, developing their own A bomb would seem like a very wise move. The possibility of Hitler disposing of the USSR and then reopening the war to cross the channel would have seemed very real. Stalin sitting across the channel wouldn't have looked a whole lot better either.

Britain had the scientific know how to build the A bomb and if they aren't being bled dry by the war, they should have been able to spare the resources.


hey greebo, do you think it possible that us brits might have made a bomb, and have done it fast enough to stop anyone else doing it too?

wouldnt the UK using an atom bomb been a bit like signing her own death warrant?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 11:21:58 AM by B@tfinkV »
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Offline Timppa

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2007, 11:44:04 AM »
.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 11:46:08 AM by Timppa »

Offline Angus

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2007, 12:16:36 PM »
Short about the A-bomb...
AFAIK the USA were able to build one from resources supplied by the British.
BTW, the lend-lease contract was accepted by a margin, - YES INDEED, - it was almost declined despite the terms of payments in gold, delivery of certain naval bases, and,,,,,open files to every tecnical apect.
Through the history of the A-bomb development there were may milestones, and not all from the USA.
And Dowding, - I have a good book from a fighter pilot who fought over Burma. Was always interested in that part. Seems that the Japs actually had quite some force tied up because of the old commonwealth. Not a lot of people know that the RAF and their Aussie fellows had squadrons all over the east, Burma as well as Australia. And then you had that mad general in ...Borneo. Now what was his name again? Anyway, the only allied force that put the chills to the japs in jungle warfare. Wingate? fediddleing mad he was.
Anyway, that was no big numbers, but big distances and concern always weight within a long war.
Same was the case in the Nazi-USSR war on the eastern front. Nazis lost by logistics. Supply worked against them, while their skill on land and in the air was superior. Beating the USSR being supplied by the western Allies, as well as dealing with the western Allies in the air, at sea, in Africa, as well as being bombed and the med giving no open line into the Black sea (so supply lines would be long-long, - one must study a map to see this).
So, USSR was too big, Western allies too much of trouble, - the combined was too much for the Axis. Just so...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Greebo

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2007, 02:27:02 PM »
The British only have to develop an A bomb ahead of the Germans. The Soviets did no significant research on it until after Hiroshima. German atomic research was pretty chaotic in RL and they made very little progress towards a bomb.

One issue would be uranium supply. Canada and Australia have the world's largest deposits, but I don't think they were discovered until the 50s. Given an A bomb project, uranium deposits would have been searched for more actively than in RL though. Namibia apparently had a uranium mine back in 1928 however.

I don't think the British aircraft industry would have had much trouble developing an aircraft to carry it either. A Griffon powered stretched Lanc would have probably done it.

The thing about an A bomb is not to use it, its the threat of using it. "Herr Hitler/Comrade Stalin, are you SURE you want to go to war with us?"
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 02:33:23 PM by Greebo »

Offline Angus

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2007, 05:51:48 PM »
Well. "want to go to" was years past, when the A-bomb finally was ready with a combined effort of UK & USA.
As for carrying it, the Brits had tha capacity already in 1942 or so.... if not before.
Anyway, back to the USSR...

I was working with one particular thought, - what if the British had decided to take Hitler's "Appeal to reason" with a "yes, allright" rather than replying "stuff it into your foul mouth"
My whole thought on this is what the British impact was on the Nazi-Train. Our Russian friends seem to look at it as nothing, or at best light-weighted.
When I started digging deep and deeper into history, I was first baffled about how unsuccessful the UK was, then it started to dawn on me that they had one thick neck, and the influence for the Nazi war machine, simply being at war (standstill war or whatever) tied down enormous resources. Hence, that influenced in a big way how the Axis could tackle the USSR.
So, if the subject is 1941, I'd go with Viking's theory, that the Axis would have grabbed, held, and defended Moscow, then defeated the USSR.
That one is even thought without a Black Sea front, which I think that would have been an enormously interesting scenario, and our Russian partners on this BB could perhaps fill in some gaps about the geographical parameters. Boroda has already posted something.

Now, if we go on to the prolonged war on the eastern front, which was basically a result of the Axis primary objective failing, - no Moscow, no business-break before winter, etc, - it was still dicey, as well as taking years beforebeing absolutely clear. And as this state went on, there was one new front, before Normandy. The bombing campaign.
Now, the Bombing campaign failed it's objective. It was supposed to cripple German production capacity, and/or even force the nation to surrender.
Incredible damage was done, but the Germans soldiered on.
Now, one would have tobe a fool to claim that it didn't affect their production capability. But the world of totaliarism, with a shield of conquered nations will not buckle so easily. However, just defending from the allied air-raids as well as bringing new weapons of revenge demanded enormous, ENORMOUS resources.
I have found some numbers.
1943, - more than 2.000 flak Batteries just in the Reich. (I got to know and work for a guy who was pulled from school to serve in a Flak battery in 1943 together with his whole class. He was 15. Most of them died, he got out with bad health and one eye)
At the end of '43 the Gerries had 500.000 gunner-crew with 10.000 heavy guns firing enormous amounts of ammo into the air.
The eastern front was indeed big. But I will tend to think that double power would have secured the Axis Both in Moscow and Stalingrad. And then there would have been no Kursk. But with double power there, victory would have gone to the Axis as well anyway.
30 Miles to grab Moscow.....
2 miles to grab Stalingrad....(?)

IMHO, it was very close, as it went...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Greebo

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2007, 06:11:31 PM »
The issue with the bomber is not just carrying the thing, but getting clear of the explosion. Don't think a conventional Lanc would have done it. Maybe one with two stage Merlins might have.

Offline Fishu

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2007, 06:22:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Greebo
The issue with the bomber is not just carrying the thing, but getting clear of the explosion. Don't think a conventional Lanc would have done it. Maybe one with two stage Merlins might have.


It would've just needed a parachute that deploys at approriate time after drop to give the bomber time to get away.

The biggest problem would be fighters. B-29's would been in alot more trouble against the LW than japs, let alone british bombers.

Offline culero

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2007, 06:30:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
Tim if i was to choose who i would want to die for?

stalin - battle to end all battles with leader on the field, pretty heroic and historic

brown - very rich, fat, ugly, womanizer who reeks of coffee and bagals in a war he is fighting from the other side of the world behind armed gaurd...not what i call a glorious way to go

never voted here, and never will till i see a leader i want to vote for.
snip


Why compare apples and oranges temporally? It would be more relevant to compare contemporary leaders, wouldn't it? I care naught for Brown myself, but surely you admire men of your own nation such as Churchill and "Bomber" Harris, don't you?
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline culero

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2007, 06:32:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
..and what is interesting is that the US vets who fought the war appear to be alot less concerned about getting pats on their backs for "saving Europe or the world" than Americans who weren't even born when they did so.


I think you misunderstand, sir. We don't want any pats on our backs from you, we don't give a damn what you think. We're too busy patting ourselves on the back while we're gloating at you :)
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline B@tfinkV

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2007, 07:39:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
Why compare apples and oranges temporally? It would be more relevant to compare contemporary leaders, wouldn't it? I care naught for Brown myself, but surely you admire men of your own nation such as Churchill and "Bomber" Harris, don't you?



sure Churchill was also someone worth dying for. battle in the skies? death or glory! 19yo boys given spitfires to play with? hell yeah! what a way to go.
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Offline lazs2

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2007, 10:13:32 AM »
alternate history is fun but.. it is like predicting the climate of the planet with a computer model..

There are just to many variables to get an accurate idea.   You are left with an almost infinite number of possibilities.

lazs

Offline Angus

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2007, 03:13:23 AM »
Infinite, well...
Reading up more on the whole deal, with all the available data, I see the major things hairing down to some few important "what if's".
Makes a rack of fun ;)

Oh, BTW, about Burma, - not sure how much resources it tied down for the Japanese, - however the importance is more about the resources they were after. Oil, and rubber if I remember right.
The British were holding out on many resources in the far east. Japanese needed those, and their only way to get them, as well as going past the U.S. embargo, was either by dropping the war in Chine, or going to war with the western Allies.
Remember that not all Japanese were too happy about waging a war with the USA, wasn't it Yamamoto who said that ig Pearl Harbour failed, there would be no way to win a war with the USA?
My wat-if is after all, based on one thing. Britain Stepping out of the war in July 1940. That basically means that the Axis have secured Europe at that time, and if you picture that Britain would be able to hold her Navy and colonies (Hitler's own words within his own circle, - he had some admiration for the British as well as defining their colonial and naval power as necessary for world stability), against trading with the Axis, - it gives a very different picture!
There was no lend-lease deal in 1940. The USA held themselves on the sideline, somewhat expecting the British to buckle. Trade was open between USA and Germany untill 1941. And the Lend-lease deal was only agreed by a margin of votes, - there were strong names against it!
So, it leaves a question. The Japanese, who after all have a deal with the Germans, and the Germans have open business with everybody. The British have their raw materials in the far east, which the Japanese need.
My money goes to the British being forced to trade (rather than just give), and they were after all pretty much bankrupt in 1940. Japanese would not have to deal with the USA under those cirkumstances. So, No Pearl Harbour.
What big blocks of the world do you have? The USA, the European Axis, the Commonwealth, The Japanese Empire, and the USSR. And who likes the USSR :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Excel1

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Nazis make peace with UK, what then?
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2007, 04:12:48 AM »
imo its all conjecture way up there in the ether with martian invasions as britain never would have bent over for hitler. he was an arrogant deluded mad man and his insane desire for a neutered bulldog to pat on the head and play fetch with just reinforces that. sorry, but i cant take anything the mad ****er said seriously