What is a Militia?

[SkyRock]

It doesn't matter what is ruled, people will have guns in this country, hell, down here, even the libs won't give their guns up!   Most do not need the 2nd amendment to tell them it's their right!

[Yeager]

I wouldn't mind living in that house.  What sort of guns do you own?

[AKIron]

Texas is very gun friendly but I have no grandkids living here.

[Toad]

Originally posted by wrag
NOPE!

Sorry but the Bill of Rights is the LAW of the LAND!  AND supersedes ALL other laws!

 

A law forbidding the private possession of handguns within the village (Washington, D.C.?) limits for example?

Two words:

Morton Grove.

Second Amendment-based challenges to a local ordinance in Morton Grove, Ill., were rejected by the Illinois State Supreme Court (Quillici vs. Morton Grove) and the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and in 1983 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal.

What happens when the SC refuses to hear an appeal? What does the 7th Circuit then become?


This next SC case will be a close run thing, IMO. It's time to settle it, however.

[Bingolong]

Originally posted by SIG220
No, the correct question to ask is this:  Who are THE PEOPLE????


"the right of the people  to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


SIG 220

"The People"
Regarding the meaning of "the People", the U.S. Supreme Court stated in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259 (1990),

"the people" seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution and contrasts with the words "person" and "accused" used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that "the people" refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.[38]

Applied to the first and fourth amendments, other clauses enumerating rights to "the people", this would imply the right applies to all members of this class and in some cases individually. The right of free speech, for instance, applies to all those within the class of those attached to the national community.

As Richard Primus and Jack Rakove have noted, the right of the people to assemble was generally understood not to refer to individuals in isolation. The Pennsylvania Declaration of Rights affirmed a right of the people "to regulate their internal police", another formulation in which this right was used in a more collective sense.

However, as noted earlier by the Supreme Court in 1886, the Second Amendment is not restricted to American citizens. In Presser v. Illinois (1886) before the high court, Presser made an attempt to link the Second Amendment as being a privilege or immunity of citizens of the United States. This attempt was found lacking when the Supreme Court stated

The plaintiff in error [Presser] next insists that the sections of the Military Code of Illinois under which he was indicted are an invasion of that clause of the first section of the fourteenth amendment to the constitution of the United States which declares: 'No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.'

Additionally, the Supreme Court stated in Presser v. Illinois,

The constitution and laws of the United States will be searched in vain for any support to the view that these [Second Amendment] rights are privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States...

Hence, because the Second Amendment did not apply solely to citizens of the United States, "the people" mentioned in the Second Amendment are not necessarily American citizens but are instead simply ?"a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community".


National Guard, State police, registered militias?

[Toad]

John G. Roberts 2005  - G. W. Bush 50
John Paul Stevens 1975 -  Ford 55
Samuel A. Alito, Jr. 2006 - G. W. Bush 55
Antonin Scalia 1986 - Reagan 50
Anthony Kennedy 1988 - Reagan 52
David Souter 1990 - Bush 51
Clarence Thomas 1991 - Bush 43
Ruth Bader Ginsburg 1993 - Clinton 60
Stephen Breyer 1994 - Clinton 56

Handicapping:

Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Alito probably are pro-2nd Individual Right.

Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer are probably a lock on 2nd Collective Right.

Kennedy will be the key player and he can swing both ways as we've seen.

There's my bet.

Stuff like this is really the only reason the Presidential contest matters at all. In all other respects, there's not much difference between the D's and R's.. .but in who they will appoint to the SC... there's an important difference.

[VOR]

It's official: they're gonna go thru with it.

[E25280]

Seems oddly appropriate.  I think I got this from these boards a while back . . . but I didn't think to note who did it.

1.  Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, Detroit & Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense - give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seat belts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state.

15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to that Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military weapons'', but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles'', because they are military weapons.

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self- defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self- protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hands.

[badhorse]

The 2nd amendment was not put in place to protect the rights of hunters or recreational shooters.  It was put there to protect us from "over zealous politicians" and judges.  Hopefully the court will get it right this time. (unlike 1939).

...the right of the people (not the states) shall not be infringed.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by badhorse
The 2nd amendment was not put in place to protect the rights of hunters or recreational shooters.  It was put there to protect us from "over zealous politicians" and judges.  Hopefully the court will get it right this time. (unlike 1939).

...the right of the people (not the states) shall not be infringed.

Perhaps, if we're lucky, they'll see what happens when they do infringe on it.

[lazs2]

arlo.. I think toad hit all the historical stuff.   I think it is common sense tho... especially given the wording of the second as originally written that...

The reason the peoples right to bear arms shall not be infringed is that without an armed populace you can't form a militia..  take away their arms and the people can't come together to form a militia.

by todays standards tho... and any days... why even write a second amendment if all it does if give the feds and the states the right to arm their army?    the right of the (collective) national guard/army/government run militia shall not be infringed?  that makes no sense at all..  worthless to even mention... obviously that was not the intent.

I would like to see a common sense explanation as to why the gun grabbers think that the second is the right for the government to be armed... or..  more precisely... why the second is a right of the governments soldiers to be armed.

As toad and other pointed out.. the militia is everyone "the people"  means every person who is capable bearing arms.   that was the defenition then and that is how it has remained.

If we define "militia" then we must either use the defenition that the framers used or..  we must use one that the government has since defined.

They have not defined the militia as the national guard or any government body...not then and not now.   No state constitution does so.   The idea that the militia is the national guard or a government force is made up out of thin air.

as for tanks..   tanks would not be "arms" as was defined by the framers.. nor were artillery or bombs.   your had no right to own them.  Full auto "arms" should be fine and were fine up until the 30's.   hundreds of thousands of them were in closets of veterans and farmers all over the country.

the only gun control that would be permissable would be as in the old west.. whether a person carried concealed or openly and private property owners had the right to allow or not along with court of federal buildings.

This would mean that airlines and (public) schools could still infringe on your rights (good reason for vouchers).

lazs

[AKIron]

So, they will begin hearing arguments come spring and expect to rule by July. Would be nice to have it in time for Independence Day.

oops, wrong thread, what the heck, still fits.

[Cypher]

IIRC somewhere in the constitution it says that a militia consists of all males ages 18 to 45.

[acfireguy26]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
mi·li·tia      /mɪˈlɪʃə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mi-lish-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.  
2. a body of citizen soldiers as distinguished from professional soldiers.  
3. all able-bodied males considered by law eligible for military service.  
4. a body of citizens organized in a paramilitary group and typically regarding themselves as defenders of individual rights against the presumed interference of the federal government.

[kennyhayes]

i say somalia