Author Topic: What is a Militia?  (Read 20784 times)

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #495 on: December 25, 2007, 12:37:10 PM »
It says, "A well regulated Militia"! 1st not the people not the state and not bear arms it says WELL REGULATED MILITIA being a necessity.

When the First Congress passed the Bill of Rights, a Senator moved to change the Second Amendment to read “keep and bear arms for the common defense” - and the Congress voted it down

they do not call it a militia anymore since 1958. They are "defence forces" just like the gentleman in Virginia says and they have many rules.
I was just looking over the only recognized state militia in Texas. They are not even allowed to use weapons in training. Some states have out right banned any militia other than the National guard.


Toad quoted from article USCS  10 chapter 13

USCS 32 Chapter 1

"109.MAINTENANCE OF OTHER TROOPS
    (a) In time of peace, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico,
     The Virgin Islands, the Canal Zone, or the district of Columbia
     may maintain no troops other than those of the National
     Guard and defense forces authorized  by subsection (c).

     (b) nothing in this title [32 USCS] limits the right of a State
     or Territory, Puerto Rico, The Virgin Islands, the Canal Zone, or
     the district of Columbia to use its National Guard or its
     defense  force authorized by subsection (c) within its borders
     in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and
     maintaining police or  constabulary.

    (c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State or
     Territory, Puerto Rico, The Virgin Islands,the Canal Zone, or the
     district of Columbia may, as provided by its laws, organize
     and maintain defence forces.  A defence force established
     under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned,
     as its chief executive (or commanding  general in the case of the
     District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be
     called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

    (d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c)
     is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the
     armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence,
     or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States
     
     (e) A person may not become a member of a defense force
     established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve
     component of the armed forces.

I know what the law is and it is not what you state.
to be in a militia you have to be registered, it has to be registered, and is under control of the state.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
What is a Militia?
« Reply #496 on: December 25, 2007, 12:55:35 PM »
it does NOT say "the right of the militia" it says "the right of the people", what part of PEOPLE do you not understand.
:mad:

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What is a Militia?
« Reply #497 on: December 25, 2007, 01:03:55 PM »
Again, the militia clause is a subordinate clause.

The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

That's really all there is to it, although I understand it will take an SC ruling to make plain words understandable to some of you people.

No one that as read the actual history of the writing of the 2nd amendement, coupled with the writings of the founders of this nation can honestly have any doubt about what the amendment means or the intent of the founders in writing it.

That does not mean there isn't a shipload of weasle-word lawyers that won't try to obfuscate plain language and twist the Constitution into something it was never intended to be.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #498 on: December 25, 2007, 01:18:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Again, the militia clause is a subordinate clause.

The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

That's really all there is to it, although I understand it will take an SC ruling to make plain words understandable to some of you people.

No one that as read the actual history of the writing of the 2nd amendement, coupled with the writings of the founders of this nation can honestly have any doubt about what the amendment means or the intent of the founders in writing it.

That does not mean there isn't a shipload of weasle-word lawyers that won't try to obfuscate plain language and twist the Constitution into something it was never intended to be.


The militia were not created by the common law. Militia law is statutory law. The charter of each American colony included authority to create militia units. All American colonies passed militia laws under the authority granted by their charters. All states and the federal government have militia laws. There never was a period of common law militia in America.
Interpreting statute law and the Constitution to understand the meaning of 'militia', for example, does not mean that there ever was a common law militia. Even if the Bill of Rights or the Fourteenth Amendment means that laws against unauthorized paramilitary organizations are unconstitutional the result would not change civilians into some sort of common law militiamen.
White able-bodied free males were required by law to belong to the miliita by the statute law of the colony. Whether or not they actually served in militia units is another question. Sometime the militia laws were strictly enforced, sometime laxly. The requirement for service could be met by joining either the colony's militia in your local area or joining (if they would have you) a volunteer militia unit. These companies were allowed under colonial legislation and were, of course, subordinate to the authority of the colony. Some colonies provided religious exemptions to militia duty.
The concept of the militia to remember is that it was a SYSTEM to create organized armed forces for the colony. The militia could be called out by local officials for defense purposes or called out by the colonial leadership. There was also fighting and killing done by groups that were not militia units.
The term for those within the militia system was simply the militia. A distinction was drawn between those who did their militia duty in the compulsory units and those who did their militia duty in volunteer units. The compulsory militia was known as trainbands, beat militia, or enrolled militia. The volunteer milita was known as the volunteer militia, or the uniform militia. The term 'uniform' referred to the fact that the volunteers wore uniforms.
The militia were revitalized and reorganized in the 1770's by the colonies to provide a force to counter the British Army in the growing constitutional crisis over the colonies.
"In September 1774 the Continental Congress endorsed a resolution from Suffolk County, Massachusetts, calling for the colonies to reorganize the militias under leadership friendly to the "rights of the people," setting in motion a series of provincial actions that made the militia the cornerstone of armed resistance to British policy through the winter of 1775. Massachusetts moved first to revive the militia's ancient function as the armed guarantor of the civil constitution. In October 1774, the provincial congress instructed local committees of safety to assume responsibility for the training, supply, and mobilization of the colony's militia system. It also directed the citizens in their capacity as militiamen, and "with due deliberation and patriotic regard for the public service," to elect their own company officers. Those chosen in local voting were to elect regimental officers to command the militia at the county level. The provincial congress retained the power to appoint general officers, ensuring that the military order remained ultimately subordinate to civil authority.
"Resolving "that a well-regulated Militia, composed of the gentlemen, freeholders, and other freemen, is the natural strength and only stable security of a free Government," the Maryland convention acted in December 1774 to reorganize its militia under a popularly elected officers corp. ...Six month later, in an effort to provide a source of manpower for the newly formed Continental army, Congress recommended that all states adopt the republican principles embodied in the Massachusetts militia structure. ...By early fall [1775] provincial assemblies in Maryland, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Virginia, New Hampshire, and North Carolina had taken steps to comply with the congressional recommendations.
When the Founding Fathers referred to the militia, they were referring to the state organizations that had already existed for decades or even more than a century in some states by 1787. These state organizations had extensive militia codes which regulated who would be and who would not be in the militia, how, when and where militia members would train, who would officer the militia, what the punishment for transgressions would be, how the militia could be called up, etc. Although it was common for people to refer to the state militias as consisting of all the people, since they did consist of one whole heck of a lot of the people, anyway, in actual fact, exemptions were very common, and it was easy for wealthy or privileged people to avoid militia service. These state organizations were hierarchical in nature. In some states officers were elected; in others, they were appointed by the state. The entire state was usually organized into geographical divisions which corresponded with a military division. Divisions were geographically subdivided into brigades, regiments, and companies, just like regular military units. In Southern states, regiments often corresponded with counties, and militia captains had additional civil responsibilities, such as handling elections or appointing slave patrols.
It is a mistake,to conceive of the militia merely as a mass of individual men with guns. Though indeed they were citizen-soldiers, they were as organized as eighteenth century society could organize Americans, and when they were called out, it was usually through a top-down, organized fashion

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What is a Militia?
« Reply #499 on: December 25, 2007, 01:21:14 PM »
You simply fail to grasp the basic truth: The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

Study on those two sentences until the SC rules on it as an individual right.

Cheers!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #500 on: December 25, 2007, 01:42:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You simply fail to grasp the basic truth: The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

Study on those two sentences until the SC rules on it as an individual right.

Cheers!


Assumed by U

were talking about militias not your right to own a gun :D

Like I told Laz run out in the street with your guns to start your militia see how far ya get.

 

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 25, 2007, 01:52:29 PM by Bingolong »

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
What is a Militia?
« Reply #501 on: December 25, 2007, 02:48:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
bingie and arlo.. you keep avoiding


*yawn*

Merry Christmas, Laz, `ol boy. :)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Re: What is a Militia?
« Reply #502 on: December 25, 2007, 05:14:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bingolong
I guess we will find out.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6J5sVRt9a4g&refer=home


From the very first post in this thread, it was clear you didn't know what this was all about.

It's not about a militia at all. As I mentioned before I doubt you'll realize that fact even after the SC rules on the 2nd as a collective vs individual right.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
Re: Re: What is a Militia?
« Reply #503 on: December 25, 2007, 07:42:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
From the very first post in this thread, it was clear you didn't know what this was all about.

It's not about a militia at all. As I mentioned before I doubt you'll realize that fact even after the SC rules on the 2nd as a collective vs individual right.


\\So if i dont agree with you almighty, I can go suck coal, right? Wrong and yes that is why I posted the ? it has not been decided and it will be the main focal point.

At this point it is collective :D
« Last Edit: December 25, 2007, 07:45:09 PM by Bingolong »

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What is a Militia?
« Reply #504 on: December 26, 2007, 07:53:04 AM »
It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not; I really don't care. The only guys that matter are on the SC.

OTOH, I see no point in discussing it with someone that doesn't really understand the basis of the case.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
What is a Militia?
« Reply #505 on: December 26, 2007, 08:10:29 AM »
exactly...  The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.   One of those reasons is because one day we may need a militia (composed of all of the people).    

The point is that the founders recognized that the people had a right to defend themselves from any kind of tyranny including that of their own government if needed.  

The point is that the militia was meant to be all of the people.   any defenition of militia that does not include all of the people is a false one.   That is probably why the current code, 311 defines both an organized and an unorganized militia.

The unorganized militia according to current federal code is just as it was in 1776.. it is all of the people.

and bingie.. as for me going around armed and claiming constitutional militia status...  I am no martyr.    It would be right but it would be expensive and dangerous...  Just because their is a law that does not make it right.

I am sure that you would have told the negros who wanted to attend white schools that they were wrong because the law said they couldn't and that if they didn't believe it then they should just go and attend and see what happened.

Some brave ones did.  

lazs

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #506 on: December 26, 2007, 10:50:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not; I really don't care. The only guys that matter are on the SC.

OTOH, I see no point in discussing it with someone that doesn't really understand the basis of the case.


No one told you to chime in with your assumptions. the basis of the case is the militia of the state and you better hope they keep it.

hard to have a battle of wits when your unarmed. I wonder why a gun dosnt pop out of the womb with you when your born.

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #507 on: December 26, 2007, 10:51:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
exactly...  The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.   One of those reasons is because one day we may need a militia (composed of all of the people).    

The point is that the founders recognized that the people had a right to defend themselves from any kind of tyranny including that of their own government if needed.  

The point is that the militia was meant to be all of the people.   any defenition of militia that does not include all of the people is a false one.   That is probably why the current code, 311 defines both an organized and an unorganized militia.

The unorganized militia according to current federal code is just as it was in 1776.. it is all of the people.

and bingie.. as for me going around armed and claiming constitutional militia status...  I am no martyr.    It would be right but it would be expensive and dangerous...  Just because their is a law that does not make it right.

I am sure that you would have told the negros who wanted to attend white schools that they were wrong because the law said they couldn't and that if they didn't believe it then they should just go and attend and see what happened.

Some brave ones did.  

lazs


Their is plenty of law on the militia and how it preforms. 1776 just what it is 1776 today is 2008 things have changed.

No I wouldnt have stole the Africans from their homeland in the 1st place.


Edit: Laz do you really believe one day we will or could possible need the
Unorganized  Militia?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 11:25:08 AM by Bingolong »

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What is a Militia?
« Reply #508 on: December 26, 2007, 11:22:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bingolong
hard to have a battle of wits when your unarmed.  


It doesn't seem to keep you from posting. I suppose I should admire your effort.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
What is a Militia?
« Reply #509 on: December 26, 2007, 11:27:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
It doesn't seem to keep you from posting. I suppose I should admire your effort.


I bet I've read alot more than you have on this case and I  bet I have read alot more about the law than you have as well.

Good Day sir,