Author Topic: Democrats are the only party that has ever used an atomic or nuclear weapons on human  (Read 1105 times)

Offline RTHolmes

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wow you guys let political parties own and deploy nooks? :o

in most countries* the button is in the hands of it's government. I think you're taking that "right to bear arms" thing a bit too far :p



*except the UK of course :rolleyes:
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Offline DiabloTX

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I believe if someone like Teddy Roosevelt had been in office he would have taken a more proactive role in getting the growing conflict resolved before America became involved.  Something like, "Hey Adolf, let me show you something.  You see that right there?  That's our industrial complex.  It's at idle at the moment.  If you seriously want to see what it can produce against you go ahead, make my day.  It's your call, pal."
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Offline AquaShrimp

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According to a non-biased study that the Navy did, the invasion of Japan would have cost 250,000 casualties and 50,000 American dead.

Offline Tac

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Originally posted by Angus
2. Show the full force and horror of this weapon, which put some weight on why it has never been used again.
the bad one:
- well, it surely killed a lot of civilians in a most horrible way.


There was a short film made years ago that was aired in the sci-fi channel that had 'alternative history' scenarios.

One of those was the allies winning WW2 without using nuclear weapons. The story was that the war ended in 1947 after a brutal invasion of the Japanese mainland by the US and Russian forces and Japan got split up into north and south control zones just like Germany was split.

The cold war went a different way though. When north korea attacked the south and the UN forces pushed North korea north of the 38th parallel, Macarthur WAS given permission to use the A-bomb when the Chinese forces joined the fight on the side of the north. (macarthur wanted to create a 'radiation' wall at the chinese-korean border)

The result of that was China losing 1/3rd of its territory to the UN forces (UN forces were at war with China) and the USSR quietly remained neutral while trying to build its own a-bombs.  

Years later, the cuban missile crisis went badly and US / USSR exchanged nuclear attacks and the world entered a nuclear winter. The story itself was told by a teacher giving a history lesson to kids in an underground shelter 20 years after the nuclear winter.

a very interesting short film. It kinda shows how the use of the nukes to end WW2 gave the world advanced notice of the horror of nuclear weapons at a time BEFORE the two superpowers had stockpiles of them (and of significantly higher destructive power than WW2 era nukes). It is said the USSR backed away from the cuban missile crisis because their leaders knew too well the effects the nukes had on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Offline Angus

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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
According to a non-biased study that the Navy did, the invasion of Japan would have cost 250,000 casualties and 50,000 American dead.


I would say that this study was maybe biased.
It has no particular comparability with the fights and losses the USA suffered on IWO and Okinawa. (IWO was what, - 20K?), which are very small slabs of land compared to the japanese homeland, - which is also even more holy to them and had a lot more troops.
What was it, - operation Olympus. Their total casualty estimates were extrapolated from exactly the actual combats with the japs. And while they may have kept their figures "roomy", they were IMHO right to do so.
And BTW, did they calculate the Japanese losses?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Originally posted by Russian
Or I could do that myself.


"While waiting for USSR to enter conflict with Japan, ruling circle of US decided to use atomic weapons verses Japan. On 6th and 9th August American aviation dropped two bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As a result of those weapons,   447 thousand civilian people were killed or maimed. No military actions of this nature were needed; fate of Japan was already resolved. Detonation of those weapons are a heavy crime verses humanity. It was atomic blackmail with goals aimed at getting world hegemony after world war, a first act of cold war."


Got to love Soviet era propoganda, so full of tripe.


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Offline Bodhi

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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
According to a non-biased study that the Navy did, the invasion of Japan would have cost 250,000 casualties and 50,000 American dead.



The planners made several casualty rate studies.  One low one to gain approval for the invasion, and a second higher one to plan for reinforcements necessary and to plan medical logistics.

During the planning for Operation Downfall, it was decided to first land on Kyushu to provide a close in base for the attacks on the main Island.  At the start of the invasion planning, there were roughly 45000 troops on Kyushu.  The Japanese anticipated the plans and moved 9 more divisions into the area.  For a total of over 250000 troops on Kyushu alone.  

Based upon casualty rates on prior invasions like Okinawa, the Japanese wounded one American for every defender.  Approximately 20% caused deaths.  

There were over 5000 non Kamikaze Combat Aircraft held in reserve.  There were an additional 5000 Kamikaze Aircraft.  It was estimated that 15% - 20% of the invasion fleet would be sunk.  The Japanese figured on 50% plus owing to there previous success with long distance attacks at Okinawa.

The bottonline was that over a million casualties were expected.
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Offline KgB

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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Got to love Soviet era propoganda, so full of tripe.


ack-ack

I dont think it has anything to do with being Soviet.Lotta people believe that it was demonstration of power.
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Offline Angus

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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Got to love Soviet era propoganda, so full of tripe.


ack-ack


I go with that.... Unneccesary...447.000 people....
Sure, - for you Russian, even after Hiroshime, the Japanese military councel decided to go on fighting. So go figure the rest of Japanese casualties in a homeland conflict, - you can find out the Japanese casualty figures at IWO (99%) as well as civilian casualties added in places like Okinawa.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Rich46yo

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It was both. Both a means to end the war, and as long as were doing that we might as well show the Soviets what we had. But we had also shown that as they occupied to German cities destroyed by bombing as well. Ive always believed that was part of the reason we annihilated Dresden. You dont think Stalin took note?

                         Imagine the catastrophe in Asia if we didn't end the war quickly and didn't build Japan into a Fortress of Democracy? All of Asia would have ended up under the filthy Commie boot.
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Offline KgB

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Originally posted by Rich46yo
It was both. Both a means to end the war, and as long as were doing that we might as well show the Soviets what we had. But we had also shown that as they occupied to German cities destroyed by bombing as well. Ive always believed that was part of the reason we annihilated Dresden. You dont think Stalin took note?
 

I agree 100%
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Offline LePaul

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I meant to add in my earlier post....

I'm sure the servicemen who perished in Pearl Harbor were for it.

Or those killed in the Bataan deathmarch.

Or the British troops who had surrendered in Singapore, many being murdered in cold blood while in the hospital, in the midst of surgery or the nurses who were murdered.

So before we go boo-hoo for the Japs, let's also recall how *sweetly* they treated POWs or the people's of any land they captured.

Offline lasersailor184

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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I believe if someone like Teddy Roosevelt had been in office he would have taken a more proactive role in getting the growing conflict resolved before America became involved.  Something like, "Hey Adolf, let me show you something.  You see that right there?  That's our industrial complex.  It's at idle at the moment.  If you seriously want to see what it can produce against you go ahead, make my day.  It's your call, pal."


World War 2 wasn't really a separate conflict, only World War 1 (Part two).

The only preventative measure to WW2 would have been an entirely different post war plan after WW1.  



But, like the saying goes, "Those who do not study history, are doomed to repeat it."  There was a very good reason for doing things the way they did back then.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Discuss.
:cool:


I can't :  I'm all verklempt.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Originally posted by KgB
I agree 100%


                      And it was exactly the kind of language Uncle Joe would understand. He knew we could have done the same to Russian cities, tho with all due respect the Soviet army was pretty fearsome in 1945.

                    I do not think however they could have stopped a systematic bombing campaign against Russia at that time should the love have been lost. As history has shown the absolute last thing Stalin needed post Germany was a conflict with the western allies.
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