Utilizing the P-51D's instability

[Gixer]

Originally posted by Widewing
Flying the P-51D, exploring the absolute limits of its flight envelope led me to find and unusual quirk in its flight dynamics.

Personally I think all the flight modeling is quirky to one degree or another. At times feels more like being in control of a remote controlled plane rather then actual flight.

So much analysis of "real world" to the game, really they are chalk and cheese there are basics to each aircraft which they represent but that's about it.

Makes for a fun game/environment though.


...-Gixer

[Murdr]

Mustang

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by wrag
In AHI the 109s had about as much down vator as up (which SEEMS correct according to info?) but when AHII came along that maneuver was no more, now 109 wallows and nearly refuses to react to down vator?

Try it with the aircraft trimmed for straight and level flight at whatever airspeed you're at.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Been watching Dogfights lately Widewing?

Looks like what Don Bryan of the 352nd described himself doing on November 2, 1944 to get a 109 off his tail.

That was a fantastic show in that series.

Bryan was in deep trouble until he pulled that maneuver.

Edit : Just watched Murdr's film ... similar to Bryan move but Bryan did not flop as violently and as many time times as WW did.

Here is Bryan's move on youTube ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk

Just as incredible, if not more, is Candelaria's move ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8&feature=related

and then to get guns on the guy ... amazing.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SlapShot
That was a fantastic show in that series.

Bryan was in deep trouble until he pulled that maneuver. What was more amazing than the maneuver, was that he had the where with all to get a cockpit shot on the 109 ... amazing to say the least.

Edit : Just watched Murdr's film ... similar to Bryan move but Bryan did not flop as violently and as many time times as WW did.

I just picked up a copy of Flight Journal's WWII Air Combat issue (yesterday). There's an article by Lt.Col Bryan describing the fight shown on Dogfights. In the article, Bryan does not mention getting a shot at the 109. In fact, he states: " I did everything I could think of to lose this guy, except one. I knew I was had, so I used an old P-40 trick and initiated an inverted vertical reverse. In an instant, I was gone and hopefully left him wondering where the hell I went. I never met up with him again, and I was surely not going to look for him either. That son of a gun was good, he had a good airplane, and he knew what the hell he was doing."

There's no doubt that Bryan was describing the same huge brawl shown on Dogfights.

So, did he tell two different stories, or is the History Channel playing loose and fast with the facts? Bryan's After Action Report (see below) doesn't mention this other than to state he evaded a 109 with a snap roll.... And this snap roll occurred early in the fight (per the article), long before the encounter with the hot 109 driver. He may have left it out of the report, rather than admit it at the time. Either way, what was shown on Dogfights doesn't add up to the combat report submitted and verified.



My regards,

Widewing

[Badboy]

Originally posted by Widewing
There's no doubt that Bryan was describing the same huge brawl shown on Dogfights.

So, did he tell two different stories, or is the History Channel playing loose and fast with the facts? Bryan's After Action Report (see below) doesn't mention this other than to state he evaded a 109 with a snap roll.... And this snap roll occurred early in the fight (per the article), long before the encounter with the hot 109 driver. He may have left it out of the report, rather than admit it at the time. Either way, what was shown on Dogfights doesn't add up to the combat report submitted and verified.

I think there is just a simple misunderstanding here. Bryan didn't claim to get a shot, and it wasn't presented that way on the History channel. He simply described how he evaded and got away from a 109. It was Candelaria who got the shot (and the kill) in a different incident.

It looks as though SlapShot posted the two separate links together, because they were both interesting P-51 maneuvers.

The History Channel Dogfights' presentation and the combat report appear to be consistent.

Badboy

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Badboy
I think there is just a simple misunderstanding here. Bryan didn't claim to get a shot, and it wasn't presented that way on the History channel. He simply described how he evaded and got away from a 109. It was Candelaria who got the shot (and the kill) in a different incident.

It looks as though SlapShot posted the two separate links together, because they were both interesting P-51 maneuvers.

The History Channel Dogfights' presentation and the combat report appear to be consistent.

Badboy

I watched that episode just the other day, and it showed Bryan doing his inverted reverse and I thought, hosing the 109 as it went by. Am I confused? I'll check You Tube as some putz surely posted a copy there.

(EDIT) Yep, I was confused.... Different P-51 pilot, I was thinking of this one.

Here's the Bryan episode

My regards,

Widewing

[Brooke]

There is also an episode of Dogfights about a fight between an F-4 Phantom and a Mig in Vietnam.  The F-4 was in trouble with a Mig on his tail, and the pilot did the following:  shoved stick forward and left rudder, then full back and right rudder (possibly with crossed controls -- I forget that detail).  It caused the F-4 to do a sort of back flip and dump speed very, very quickly.  The Mig shot by without being able to get a shot.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Widewing
I watched that episode just the other day, and it showed Bryan doing his inverted reverse and I thought, hosing the 109 as it went by. Am I confused? I'll check You Tube as some putz surely posted a copy there.

(EDIT) Yep, I was confused.... Different P-51 pilot, I was thinking of this one.

Here's the Bryan episode

My regards,

Widewing

Sorry ... your right ... I got confused between the Bryan and Candelaria fights, both on the same episode I believe ... it was Candelaria that got the unbelievable span shot after his "funky" move ... Bryan just bugged out and was happy and satisfied just to still be alive.

Most interesting thing about both of these guys ... they just don't fit the stereotypical macho "fighter" pilot ... both act and seems like a couple of mild and meek men ... but get them in a Mustang and they transform.

[Furball]

Nath put up a film on our squad forum of him doing this move in the old 109 G-10.  IIRC Taki was following him in a N1K, nath did the maneuver and as he was facing the other way, fired a spud right into taki's face.  Too funny.

[splitatom]

i have done an instant turn around using ruder i have done it acople of times not in combat but in the ofline

[dtango]

No one commented on it so I assume folks didn't look at the film I posted earlier in the thread.  Here's an animated gif of what I call the Mustang "flat plate".



This looks a lot like Candelaria's maneuver described in Dogfights except that I didn't fire and hit anything in executing the maneuver!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Lye-El]

I played around with this maneuver in the TA when I saw it on the Dogfights show just to see if it would work in AH.  It seemed to work just fine.

Never tried it in the MA as I don't fly mustangs much.

[FireDrgn]

Originally posted by dtango
No one commented on it so I assume folks didn't look at the film I posted earlier in the thread.  Here's an animated gif of what I call the Mustang "flat plate".



This looks a lot like Candelaria's maneuver described in Dogfights except that I didn't fire and hit anything in executing the maneuver!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Mabye i should practice more. the move you guys can do is amazing!

Gif make the move very clear. Now i see so to speak.

[Urchin]

That doesn't look like what I was talking about.  

I'll have to see if I can still do it... yours looks more like what I would call a snap roll...  you  basically induce a stall but recover from it quickly so you only rotate once.  

What we used to do sounds more like what NathBDP did - you were literally flying backwards for a half second or so until one wing dropped and you went into a spin.  

I just called in a tail slide, it felt to me (funny how it could feel like anything.. but it does, to me at least) like fishtailing your car on ice.  The back end of the plane rotated very quickly around (I could only ever do it clockwise, I think that is the only way it could be done) in the horizontal plane until it just stopped.  Sometimes you'd get 180 degrees of rotation, sometimes more, sometimes less.  It was nearly impossible to aim a shot while doing it, but you could hold down the trigger and maybe get lucky.

I could only ever do it in Spits and A6Ms, but it wouldnt surprise me if Nath could do it in a 109.