F6f-5p?

[Ack-Ack]

You're correct, the 20mm loadout was mostly used by the night fighting Hellcats for the reason stated by someone else earlier in this thread.

Another reason why 20mm cannons weren't widely used on the Hellcat wasn't as much due to any linkage shortage but rather due to incorrect lubrication oil for the cannons.  The lubrication used would freeze up at higher altitudes and an order went out that cannon equipped fighters couldn't go above 12,000ft as a result until the correct lubrication oil that was used in the ETO could be sent to the PTO.


ack-ack

[Shuckins]

The F6F-5 was configured at the factory to accept a mixed armament of two 20mm cannon and four .50 caliber machine guns.  Aside from the -5N nightfighters, all Hellcats issued to the U.S. Navy were equipped with the standard armament package of six .50 calibers.  I fired off an e-mail to Barrett Tillman a couple of years ago asking him if he had any knowledge of U.S. Hellcats being armed with 20mm cannon while on duty during WW II, and he replied that he had never run across any records stating that that was the case.

On the other hand, I have run across references in the past that the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm equipped some of its American built aircraft with cannon.  Given the British military's propensity for equipping every monoplane fighter in its arsenal with mixed gun packages including both cannon and machine guns, it would be highly unlikely that they did NOT arm some of their Hellcats and Corsairs in such a manner.  A lack of pictures means nothing in this case, because photos of American aircraft in the service of the British Navy are a good deal scarcer than those of the same aircraft in American service.

Regards, Shuckins

[Krusty]

The brits didn't have many hellcats, let along -5Ps. Most were diverted to the Pacific US fleets, and dumped overboard when they arrived too late.

If they had any -5Ps they would be a very small minority. They also did not go through the process of sticking 20mms onto the existing Hellcats they had, so they may not have had any on the -5Ps either.

[Shuckins]

Actually, Krusty, the British accepted nearly 1,300 Hellcats under the Lend-Lease program.  That is hardly a "few."  British carriers and their American fighter aircraft were far more active in the Atlantic than they were in the Pacific.  Hellcat and Corsair squadrons provided fighter cover for several  attacks on the Tirpitz, to name just one of the many actions that they took part in.

Given the numbers involved, I maintain that it is more than just a little possible that the Fleet Air Arm flew some of their Hellcats armed with cannon.

[Krusty]

1300 seems a bit high from what I've read. Granted I've not been in contact with the experts or anything.

Of those 1300, the question is : How many were -Ps, and how many -Ps had 20mms? Definitely some. The brits loved their hispanos. But overall? A small amount is my guess.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
Okay, just to clarify the issue, as it's getting muddled:

F6F-5N:

Night fighter. Some (not many) had 20mms. Not going to be in the game ever IMO.

All F6F-5Ns were used for daytime ops as well. When a max effort was ordered, the -5Ns loaded bombs and flew. Many -5Ns flew BARCAP sorties during daylight hours. Indeed, the F6F-5Ns often had more flight time on the airframes than the standard F6F-5 as they would often be flown around the clock.

Here's an example...



My regards,

Widewing

[VansCrew1]

What is the round thing on the right wing of the f6f? Extra gas , radar? just wondering.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
1300 seems a bit high from what I've read. Granted I've not been in contact with the experts or anything.

Britain took delivery of 252 Hellcat I (F6F-3) and 930 Hellcat II (F6F-5). Britain also received 22 F6F-3N and 80 F6F-5N fighters.

Total delivered to Britain was 1,284 F6Fs of all types.

A total of 1,434 F6F-5Ns were delivered by Grumman. It is estimated that 370 F6F-5Ns were delivered with factory fitted 20mm cannon, the guns coming from stocks delivered to Grumman for F7F-1 production (delayed by the Navy). These guns were not fitted with flash hiders, because they were originally issued for the F7F-1, which was a day fighter. Thus, F6F-5N pilots suffered severe flash blindness when firing the guns in the dark. Some units had  flash hiders fabricated by the carrier's machine shops. Other units simply removed the guns and refit .50 cal Brownings in their place. Most units suffered with ammo feed jams. In these cases, careful stoning (deburring and breaking sharp edges) of the bolts and removal of all traces of cosmoline cured the problem.

I know of only one photo of an F6F-5P armed with 20mm... I have posted it to this forum in the past.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by VansCrew1
What is the round thing on the right wing of the f6f? Extra gas , radar? just wondering.

Radar dome... Note that twice as many F6F-5Ns saw combat service as P-61s...

The Hellcat was far and away the most numerous and successful US night fighter in WWII.

My regards,

Widewing

[humble]

As I said in my initial post the only squadron level use of the F6F-5P armed with 20mm cannon that I'm aware of is VOF-1. So I was a bit suprised to se that VF-84 had the P in large numbers (if in fact that is correct). It was part of the same task force that had the enterprise flying dedicated nighttime and dusk/dawn patrols vs the japanese mainland and received a number of 5N's after the Bunker Hill was hit.

Everything I've read shows that the 5P's were factory configured with the 20mm option.

Leaving everything else aside VOF-1's use would "qualify" the 5P by every standard I've seen argued. It saw combat, killed enemy planes and suffered losses on a squadron level in sustained combat.

I'd be curious how the use played out, after all the F6F is hardly "uber" compared to some late war rides and we have the 3 x 20mm loadout for the la-7 which was certainly a seldom used variation. Just using WW's number you had more 5N's then 3 x 20mm la-7s in service. Make it a perk ride on par with the C hog if need be...

Now moving on to the A-20 with the 4 x20mm loadout......

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by humble
I knew that the F6F-5P was operational in the ETO during the invasion of southern France (VOF-1) and that is was deployed thruout the pacific integrated into most F6F equipped squads (along with the F6F-5N). I didnt know that it actually served at squadron strength in the PAC. VF-84 apparently flew a mix of F6F-5P's and N's in Feb/May 1945 prior to the Bunker Hill being kamikazed on May 11, 1945. I always thought only the VOF squads flew the F6FP (or FM-2) at squadron strength. This came from a piece of artwork I stumbled across that had a VF-84 F6F-5P along with some historical blurb.

Anyway I certainly hope that when the F6F's get redone that the 5P loadout is added as an option (should be either an ENY 5 bird or light perk IMO)....

VF-84 was flying F4U-1D's in February 1945.  They did have a handful of F6F5-N's and F6F5-P's as per normal Navy/Marine Corps aircraft distribution for VF and VMF squadrons.  Aircraft assigned to VF-84 were:  (26) F4U-1D, (6) F6F-5P, (4) F6F-5N.  VOF-1 was flying normal F6F-5's during Operation Dragoon.  They didn't receive their first F6F-5P until October 1944.  Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 3 October 1944 were: (20) F6F-5.  Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 31 October 1944 were: (23) F6F-5 and (1) F6F-5P.  Source located here.  According to other aircraft assignment records located on this site, no USN squadron flew the F6F-5P in squadron strength.  There were, as alluded to previously, several VFN's and VMFN's that flew the F6F-5N in squadron strength.

[VansCrew1]

Originally posted by Widewing
Radar dome... Note that twice as many F6F-5Ns saw combat service as P-61s...

The Hellcat was far and away the most numerous and successful US night fighter in WWII.

My regards,

Widewing

Thank you Widewing sir.

[humble]

Originally posted by Stoney74
VF-84 was flying F4U-1D's in February 1945.  They did have a handful of F6F5-N's and F6F5-P's as per normal Navy/Marine Corps aircraft distribution for VF and VMF squadrons.  Aircraft assigned to VF-84 were:  (26) F4U-1D, (6) F6F-5P, (4) F6F-5N.  VOF-1 was flying normal F6F-5's during Operation Dragoon.  They didn't receive their first F6F-5P until October 1944.  Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 3 October 1944 were: (20) F6F-5.  Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 31 October 1944 were: (23) F6F-5 and (1) F6F-5P.  Source located here.  According to other aircraft assignment records located on this site, no USN squadron flew the F6F-5P in squadron strength.  There were, as alluded to previously, several VFN's and VMFN's that flew the F6F-5N in squadron strength.

TY....

I've read a few sources the allude to 5P's for VOF-1 and the pic WW provided is pretty clearly a 5P...but I dont know the pics chronology. I know they never flew 5P's in the PAC (FM-2's & TBM's)...any place that would have the serial #'s etc on what birds VOF-1 had in 8/44?

[Krusty]

Actually, no you haven't.

There were only a few scattered Ps assigned to units. No full unit had all -Ps. If, as you suggest, you were trying to fulfull the AH criteria, it must have been in use at least at the squadron/unit/whatever level. Not scattered 3 here, 5 there.

Also, even in the photo WW showed (one I posted a long time ago in the other forum, but the link broke -- thanks WW!) even most of the -Ns had the 20mms removed. Those on the flight deck have all 50cals. Your photo, assuming it's a -P (too bad a resolution to make anything out) doesn't have any markings on the planes, nothing distinguishable. Might as well be test trials (not front line action?).

So they didn't have 20mms in 99.5% of all cases, they didn't even serve in unit strength, and they did see combat. That's pretty far short of the AH criteria (only one being met was they probably saw combat!).

[Bodhi]

how does 12 airplanes supplied count as "squadron" or "unit" strength and roughly 300+ supplied not?  

This sounds as though someone does not want a particular aircraft in the game.

Seems to me we already have some very rare aircraft tooling around now, why not allow some that definitely had numbers even if they did not fly in "squadron" strength.