who made the best cc weapons in WW2?

[SIG220]

Originally posted by mensa180
I heard on the history channel (great source I know ) that some American soldiers would pick up one of their empty clips and throw it down to get that *ping* sound, then they'd shoot the Germans that popped up looking.

Since when does metal go "ping" when it lands on either grass or dirt???

This subject is so over-hyped.

SIG 220

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by SIG220
One would not want to shoot the .30-06 round full auto from a lightweight gun.

SIG 220

Way too true-The same could be said about the .303, though. The Bren was no lightweight, but It cooled a little better, and it did have a 30-round mag, versus' the 20-rounder in the BAR. It helped the Bren out in the fire-support role.

[SIG220]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
No.  Nothing besides the .50 calibers are as powerful as .45's under 50 yards.  Don't bother replying to this, it's not up for argument.

And that is exactly why many police SWAT teams are now moving away from pistol caliber submachine guns in favor of the 5.56mm???

You seem to have forgotten the formula for kinetic energy.   It is velocity that gets squared, not mass.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The M1 Garand was originally designed to have a 20 round magazine like the BAR.  But the army insisted it have a top feeding clip.  


Edit:  Another variant that never saw duty was the T20E2. This variant is, at its simplest, a Garand modified to accept Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) magazines, and has selective fire capability, with semi- and fully-automatic modes.

The ultimate Garand I say.

There were some practical reasons for going with a clip instead of a magazine.   The thinking was that these magazines would get lost on the battlefield, and would thus have to be constantly replaced.   No small cost, when you are using so many rifles.

Inventor John Pedersen designed the Garand clip, to meet the army's needs.   There was never any serious consideration given to making a Garand with a removable magazine.

The truly ULTIMATE Garand would have been if the Army had kept the design that actually won the Army trials, which was chambered in the .276 Pedersen round ( also designed by John Pedersen ).   This design proved much more effective in the trials.   It allowed the Garand to have a 10 round clip instead of only 8.   And the .276 Pedersen had substantially less recoil than a .30-06, and thus proved easier for the average infantryman to shoot well.  It still retained decent terminal performance out to as far as the typical soldier could effectively shoot with iron sights.

It was Douglas MacArthur himself ( he was Army Chief of Staff at the time ), who overruled the recommendation, and insisted that the Garand use the .30-06   His reasoning was that it made logistics eaiser, to have one standardized caliber.   In addition, the US had a large stock of .30-06 ammo at that time.

So a .276 Pedersen Garand would have been a much better weapon.   It had a 25% increase in clip capacity, and was much easier to rapidly fire accurately.   And out to 300 m, it would have been just as effective in killing soldiers.

The new 6.8mm Remington SPC round that the Army has recently experimented with is a realization that a .27 caliber round is indeed about the ideal compromise.   Of course, many hunters who shoot the .270 Winchester round already know that.

SIG 220

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by SIG220
Since when does metal go "ping" when it lands on either grass or dirt???

This subject is so over-hyped.

SIG 220

If you've shot a Garand, you know that it pings when the clip comes out.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Angus
Well it boils down to the weight as well, now doesn't it?
A heavier bullet will slow down..slower.
And I don't have the weight comparison. 9mm to 0.45 however don't have a big difference in diameter, and btw, why have modern forces taken up the usage of what, 5.6 mm high velocity rounds?
You see, penetration is also an issue.... a stabbing issue

The 5.56MM NATO round was adopted because it is small and light, so a soldier can carry more of it (and he'll need more since 5.56 NATO is not as reliable a stopper as 7.62 NATO, or even 7.62 x 39).

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Slash27




M1 Garand and some M1As ( semi-auto only version of the M14)

They are not literally the same gun, but obviously very closely related.

Are these rifles yours?   They have gorgeous stocks on them.   Very nice looking wood indeed.

You seem to be well prepared for the next World War.  

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Yeager
The M1 Carbine was intended to replace the .45 pistol for support troops.  Apparently they needed something more capable than a pistol but less than the main Garand armament.

The Carbine become popular with many front line troops and can be seen often in combat footage.  The M1 Carbine round is not an earth shattering round ballistically but I assume it is not a pleasant experience to be shot by one.

The kinetic energy of a .30 Carbine round eaxily exceeds that of a .45 ACP   It had a muzzle velocity of 1,970 fps, instead of the slow 920 fps of the .45 ACP

Bullet drop was not anywhere near as bad as the .45 either, making hits at longer ranges much easier than with the Thompson.

The .30 Carbine was issued to many combat troops, especially to those who would benefit from it's much lighter weight and compact size.  Airborne and Tank soldiers were just some of the troops it was popular with.

I shot a .30 carbine once as a young 13 yr old kid, and I had no problem at hitting a 4 ft metal disk that the range had at 200 yards.   It was so much fun to hear the pings, and the nearly non-existent recoil made the shooting so very easy.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Viking
They would be my second choice. Germans third. USA fourth. After that it becomes blurry.

Except that the modern German Army is totally untested.   There is no combat record to suggest that it can fight as effectively as it used to.

The British, however, did kick major butt in the Falklands War against the Argentine Military.   As well as their participation in the two wars in Iraq, and Korea too.

Even the German effort in Afghanistan is limited and very meek in nature.   Their troops are mainly providing police type security inside Kabul.   They are not going out into the countryside to fight the Taliban, as US and UK troops have been.

Almost 30 German soldiers have died fighting in Afghanistan, though, mainly through IED bombs.  Germany is certainly doing far more than most nations to try to help bring peace and stability to that troubled nation.

The last mention I heard in the news about the German troops was back in September.   Reports then said that anti-war groups were pressuring the government to withdraw all German troops, while US commanders were asking them to send soldiers to help fight the Taliban in the southern part of the country.

I guess that never happened, though, as I see now in today's news that the US is sending more Marines to Afghanistan, to increase the American forces combating the Taliban.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Viking
I'm afraid I simply don't believe you. The facts do not support your argument and the armies of the world do not agree with you. If I shot you in the chest with either a 9 mm or .45 pistol you would go down really quick. Negligible difference.

The other factor in this debate is the .40 S&W cartridge, which no one has mentioned.

It offers both larger caliber than a 9mm, but close to the same capacity.   A gun that carries 17 rounds in 9mm will typically hold 15 .40 S&W rounds.

Police forces here in the USA are overwhelmingly going with the .40 S&W, since the FBI adopted it as their standard.  

The .40 S&W offers the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

Only extremely manly men like myself shoot the .45 ACP.  However, even I now own a .40 S&W also, since you get can much more compact and lighter guns in that caliber to carry.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Viking
Ball ammo is the only legal ammo for military use. Expanding bullets are outlawed by international law.

Fortunately, here in the USA, we do not have to obey International law.  

Here is my main argument in favor of the .45, a photo of the ammo that I have loaded in my SIG 220:




That hole also looks very big when you see it in person, too.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
see its amazing lazs. for a heathen like me being shot is being shot. a bullet that hits you is a bullet that hits you. if you get my meaning.

i geuss its the difference between a nice round hole in your shoulder (9mm) and a nice stump where your shoulder used to be(45).

i dont plan to get shot by or shoot at people so hopefully my ignorance will go unpunished.

You can only say that because you live in England.

The latest fad here in America is being Tased, instead of being shot.   However, since that is almost always done by the authorities, it is generally done with justification.

Here where I live, an automobile thief was brought into a hospital emergency room this past weekend by the local police.   The owner of the stolen car had witnessed the theft, and had taken chase in another car.   After the thief crashed and totaled his car during the chase, the owner caught him and beat him up pretty badly.   So that was why he was taken to the hospital, to be checked over.   Police did not show up for 15 minutes, and the guy was pretty well worked over by the really pissed off owner by then.

Well, in the Emergency room, the thief jumped on the doctor that was treating his injuries, and then grabbed him by the throat with both hands, and started choking him very violently.   The doctor was in danger of being strangled.

The officer who escorted the thief to the hospital then tased him, which made him immediately release his hold on the poor doctor's throat.   So the unlucky criminal ended up being in a violent car crash, then badly beat up, and then shot with a Taser in the same day.

I believe that a well place Taser shot can incapacitate faster than either the .45, the 9mm, or anything else.  Unfortunately, though, guns are still needed in society.  25% of Americans are estimated to own them, and the number of guns in civilian hands is now almost 200 million, far more than all of America's military and police forces combined.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If you've shot a Garand, you know that it pings when the clip comes out.

That was not my point.  He was claiming that throwing the empty clips could make a ping sound, which is ridiculous.

SIG 220

[splitatom]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Mosin-Nagant?

that is bolt action

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by SIG220
That was not my point.  He was claiming that throwing the empty clips could make a ping sound, which is ridiculous.

SIG 220

Pinching the two sides together and letting it pop out replicated the sound.