Author Topic: nik vs 109f  (Read 856 times)

Offline goober69

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nik vs 109f
« on: January 16, 2008, 12:31:09 AM »
this i a fight i had yesterday in the da.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5dpijgcszy9


i know at the initail merge that i have an e advantage and maybe a turn rate advantage. first merge we sort of both do yo yo's my speed is still good so i try to keep the high ground on him.  we trade lead twice.
i end up overshooting so i go out of plane to try to get back behind him.
i finaly do and it gets into a flat turn contest where im barely gaining angle on him but catching up. then he goes for the overshoot and i barely manage to stay behind him and when i overshoot he keeps turning the same direction letting me get back on his six. i finaly conect with a shot and take off his tail.


i know after the first two merges im comited to a fight.
i know i was ignoring all the other planes i heard the p51 blow up and i heard the hellcats first pass at me.
after killing him im low and slow manage to reverse on the hellcat but c202 kills me while i follow f6f up.

after looking at this i know one of my strenghts is keeping the eneme in view and knowing what hes doing at all times. in this case it was at the expense of knowing what else was going on, and if i had seen the pony or f6f i dont think i would have broke off from him they were way to fast at that point to kill me. but yea my sa was taxed to the max at the end.

opinions apreciated.
flying as Marvin57
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  we band of brothers;"
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Offline The Fugitive

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 07:37:05 AM »
I'm at work right now, so I can't watch the film, but from what you said....

SA is watching ALL the contacts, "Target fixation" is watching one target and ignoring the rest. In this case, you got the one you were working on.....whoopie !!! you died ! :D

Watching all the targets, and having patience, turning and timing your moves to get all of the targets in the same view makes keeping an eye on all of them much easier. Also, it give you more of a chance to kill ALL of them. Murdr has a bunch of great films on the 479ths site where he does this.

You may be out numbered, but that doesn't mean you have to loose. Plan ahead, learn to survive long enough to take more guys down. Where theres a will, theres a way  :aok
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 07:39:14 AM by The Fugitive »

Offline kozhedub

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 08:11:21 AM »
I haven't seen the video yet but just want to add that planes like N1k or Hurri 2c I dislike fighting more than anything else.

They aren't fast at all, but their turn radii are so small that they can get their nose on you extremely quickly, and unless you have a huge excess of energy you'll be in range at least for a couple seconds of their quad cannons w/ good ballistics and large reserves of ammunition.

Even diving nose down for some additional energy on the merge, trying to out zoom them in a climb or immelmen or anything that involves going up is dangerous , better to nose down and run like hell I think.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 08:18:21 AM by kozhedub »

Offline goober69

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 08:16:07 AM »
yes the nik is very good in vert and its faster than most folks give it credit for. it can hang with a hellcat until the speeds get insane. and out turn most everything it cant out run.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline goober69

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 08:18:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Fugitive
I'm at work right now, so I can't watch the film, but from what you said....

SA is watching ALL the contacts, "Target fixation" is watching one target and ignoring the rest. In this case, you got the one you were working on.....whoopie !!! you died ! :D

Watching all the targets, and having patience, turning and timing your moves to get all of the targets in the same view makes keeping an eye on all of them much easier. Also, it give you more of a chance to kill ALL of them. Murdr has a bunch of great films on the 479ths site where he does this.

You may be out numbered, but that doesn't mean you have to loose. Plan ahead, learn to survive long enough to take more guys down. Where theres a will, theres a way  :aok


yea i know i need to get better at many vs. one actualy thought i was gonna kill the hellcat lolo

murdr is just insane in ability your right though thats the stuff i went to the da to learn (how to survive 3-1)
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline goober69

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 08:19:21 AM »
please let me know what yall think when u get a chance to see the film.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline SirLoin

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 06:22:38 AM »
You could have gotten around faster on the 109 in the flat turns had you used the NIKI's med-speed combat flap(deploys at 225 mph)..that is the secret weapon on the Niki cause you get that notch out,you can turn inside any Spit (who can only deploy his fully at very low speeds)..and it is instantly retractable for minimal e-loss.
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Offline goober69

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 05:28:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirLoin
You could have gotten around faster on the 109 in the flat turns had you used the NIKI's med-speed combat flap(deploys at 225 mph)..that is the secret weapon on the Niki cause you get that notch out,you can turn inside any Spit (who can only deploy his fully at very low speeds)..and it is instantly retractable for minimal e-loss.


dont know if the film showes flap pos or not.
well by the time we got to the flat turns i was using full flaps. just about all the time.
i was using them in the loops but on the down leg they would pop back up.
the flaps are so uber on the nik especialy in vert. you can go vert with a little speed and a few notches out no problem.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline The Fugitive

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 09:26:47 PM »
I was wondering if you used your rudder much? It really didn't look like, it to me. Many times you had the chance to kick the rudder to drop your nose and get inside him, but you didn't. You lost the high ground early, but I'm use to flying the 38 so I would have just nosed up and hung that suck on its props to stay on top.

Once you were low you started using some low yos to turn inside him, but stop when you went looking for the shot, and lost ground. Stay with the yo next time. As your dropping in on his 6 you'll have the option to drop off you turn a bit to get the shot....if its there.

DA is a poor place to practice multi target fights. Join the MA, find the biggest horde, and go and try to stop them  :D  Its easy to drag a few away from the horde and work them over.

Offline Murdr

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 11:38:31 PM »
I did see what fugi saw in regards to rudder.  At slow speeds when your roll is slugish, you can briefly rudder into your roll to assist getting a roll started.  In fact it is even possible to use the rudder to raise the AoA on one wing and force it to stall and create an instant snap roll under the right conditions.

Where he was refering to is when you went vertical, and the 109 had a flight path overshoot underneath you.  That would be the time to roll by any means possible to drop your nose for a shot.

Really, the main comment I have is SA on flight paths could use some honing.  Mainly in the form of spotting flight path overshoots.  The trick is, if you forsee that one is going to happen, you can swing your 3-9 line towards them and convert it into a wingline overshoot.  Or defensively, don't go where you will create a flight path overshoot.  At 3:29 in the film, you walked right into a flight path overshoot by going lift vector on/nose on when you were acclerating in a decent, while the 109 was slowing in the climb.  One of the better sticks would have converted that to a wing ling overshoot, and probably killed you right there.  (Ties in well with the strong/weak side post and film I made a bit ago in the other thread).

Other thing was watching the film, I wanted to look around more at several points.  You don't need to dwell on other enemies, but a quick flash view in their direction can give you and idea of what they are doing, and where & when they might attack from.  

The films fugi is thinking of are probably in this thread.  And yes in that first film I did honestly attack the bombers, and evaded the 190s attack on the blind just based on a brief view of it at the start of the film.  That was enough to tell me when and where to expect the attack to come from.

Offline goober69

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2008, 07:38:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Murdr
I did see what fugi saw in regards to rudder.  At slow speeds when your roll is slugish, you can briefly rudder into your roll to assist getting a roll started.  In fact it is even possible to use the rudder to raise the AoA on one wing and force it to stall and create an instant snap roll under the right conditions.

Where he was refering to is when you went vertical, and the 109 had a flight path overshoot underneath you.  That would be the time to roll by any means possible to drop your nose for a shot.

Really, the main comment I have is SA on flight paths could use some honing.  Mainly in the form of spotting flight path overshoots.  The trick is, if you forsee that one is going to happen, you can swing your 3-9 line towards them and convert it into a wingline overshoot.  Or defensively, don't go where you will create a flight path overshoot.  At 3:29 in the film, you walked right into a flight path overshoot by going lift vector on/nose on when you were acclerating in a decent, while the 109 was slowing in the climb.  One of the better sticks would have converted that to a wing ling overshoot, and probably killed you right there.  (Ties in well with the strong/weak side post and film I made a bit ago in the other thread).

Other thing was watching the film, I wanted to look around more at several points.  You don't need to dwell on other enemies, but a quick flash view in their direction can give you and idea of what they are doing, and where & when they might attack from.  

The films fugi is thinking of are probably in this thread.  And yes in that first film I did honestly attack the bombers, and evaded the 190s attack on the blind just based on a brief view of it at the start of the film.  That was enough to tell me when and where to expect the attack to come from.


yea thanks a lot all of u your right im not noticing the oporitunitys like i should.
when i first watched this i was thinking man i could have killed him much faster had i seen those windows or not overshot him the first time.
i had a lot of chances in that fight that a better oponent wouldnt have given me.

heck even watching it on film with the lines i have to turn it around and change angles to see the things im missing.
i use my rudder some but especialy in the nik i tend to overcontrol and end up snapstalling.
main use of rudder i think for me it to slow down and help line up my shots, sort of skew the nose over and take a shot.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline rauchen

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nik vs 109f
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 11:18:34 PM »
It's the con doing 450 zooming in and out of your 125 mph fite that's really hard to keep track of.  Your seat back was towards the fatal C205 for a looong time, but based on trying to kill the F6F I'm not sure most pilots would've seen him either.  If the F6F had turned the other way you'd probably been ok for a few more turns, kilt the F6F and then been 2v1 (albeit lowere e) vs the C205.

I guess the real trick is to kill the nme fast!