Author Topic: Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...  (Read 32624 times)

Offline Regulator

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #240 on: February 02, 2008, 11:46:34 AM »
I baffles me that anyone would even stop to wonder if a conveyor belt would have any effect on the force of  a propeller against the relative wind being able to move an aircraft.  Of course the plane would take off.  The only effect on the aircraft would be wheel rotational speed.  Fast enough conveyor you might burn out the wheel bearings, or if enough wheel speed were attained, you might cause tire cord seperation and failure, but the fuselage will still be pulled forward.

Offline AKIron

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #241 on: February 02, 2008, 11:48:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
If the original question had a twist that stated that the conveyor had a governor that limited its speed to max-out at 100,000 mph, the system would hold the plane in place until the conveyor reached 100,000 mph, at that point it would hold steady at 100,000 mph and the plane would then take off normally!


Sure, but could it turn with wheels spinning at 100,000 mph?  :D
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Offline AKIron

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #242 on: February 02, 2008, 11:49:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Regulator
I baffles me that anyone would even stop to wonder if a conveyor belt would have any effect on the force of  a propeller against the relative wind being able to move an aircraft.  Of course the plane would take off.  The only effect on the aircraft would be wheel rotational speed.  Fast enough conveyor you might burn out the wheel bearings, or if enough wheel speed were attained, you might cause tire cord seperation and failure, but the fuselage will still be pulled forward.


I smell a troll.
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Offline VERTEX

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #243 on: February 02, 2008, 11:51:18 AM »
Come on you guys, picture it in your mind, the conveyor cannot counteract the forward motion of the aircraft, it can only make the wheels spin faster.

The wheels free wheel on an axle independantly of the force of the propeller pulling the aircraft through the air.

Case closed.

Heres another scenario, have the aircraft held stationary by a wire attached begind. Spin up the conveyor to some rpm causing the wheels to spin backwards. Apply power to the engine while simultaneously releasing the cable, the aircraft propeller will pull the aircraft forward through the air and the aircraft will fly when take off airspeed is reached.

Done.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #244 on: February 02, 2008, 11:53:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
Come on you guys, picture it in your mind, the conveyor cannot counteract the forward motion of the aircraft, it can only make the wheels spin faster.

The wheels free wheel on an axle independantly of the force of the propeller pulling the aircraft through the air.

Case closed.

Heres another scenario, have the aircraft held stationary by a wire attached begind. Spin up the conveyor to some rpm causing the wheels to spin backwards. Apply power to the engine while simultaneously releasing the cable, the aircraft propeller will pull the aircraft forward through the air and the aircraft will fly when take off airspeed is reached.

Done.


No need to picture it in your mind. Just watch Eskimo's belt sander video.

Of course he could be executing a little sleight of hand there. I'm pretty sure he didn't really try to launch his daughter into orbit in another of his famous videos.  ;)
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Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #245 on: February 02, 2008, 11:57:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
What gets the aircraft's wheel going to even start the wheel rpm?
The forward movement of the aircraft or the conveyor belt?

You're stuck on the conveyor belt's powering the wheel speed and ignoring the aircraft's forward movement dictating the wheel speed.


Imagine this; You and I are each holding an end of a trough with a ball bearing in the middle.  Your job is to keep the bearing “exactly” in the center.  I lower my end one inch and the ball starts to roll toward me.  When you see this, are you going to immediately give up and allow the bearing to roll all the way to my end?  Or, are you going to lower your end to get the bearing back to the center?

Offline Brownshirt

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #246 on: February 02, 2008, 12:00:42 PM »
Imagine a Piper Cub taking off from a speeding carrier, starting its take-off run from the ship's bow and running to stern.

Do you really think it won't be able to take off ?

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #247 on: February 02, 2008, 12:01:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
Come on you guys, picture it in your mind, the conveyor cannot counteract the forward motion of the aircraft, it can only make the wheels spin faster.

The wheels free wheel on an axle independantly of the force of the propeller pulling the aircraft through the air.

Case closed.

Heres another scenario, have the aircraft held stationary by a wire attached begind. Spin up the conveyor to some rpm causing the wheels to spin backwards. Apply power to the engine while simultaneously releasing the cable, the aircraft propeller will pull the aircraft forward through the air and the aircraft will fly when take off airspeed is reached.

Done.


It sounds like you are so sure of yourself that you never bothered to watch these AVI's:


http://hallbuzz.com/movies/wheel_on_sander_250th.AVI



http://hallbuzz.com/movies/paper_treadmill.AVI

You certainly have not bothered to explain what is going on in them.

Offline SaburoS

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2008, 12:01:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2

I used the sander and paper treadmill because they were easy to build with household items and they illustrate the forces involved that most people could not see.  The sander must start at rest, because the only time the force described can be shown is while it accelerates; a constant speed does not show the effect.  Looking at the clip frame by frame shows that the acceleration phase may be about ½ a second (around 15 frames out of 30 fps).  Also note that the wheel is being pulled to the left by a rubber band that is stretched during acceleration.  The rubber bands represent the force of the plane’s motor.  Of course all forces are greatly skewed, but that doesn’t matter.  The force exists and can be increased in acceleration rate and duration.

If the original question had a twist that stated that the conveyor had a governor that limited its speed to max-out at 100,000 mph, the system would hold the plane in place until the conveyor reached 100,000 mph, at that point it would hold steady at 100,000 mph and the plane would then take off normally!


But you are still ignoring this:

The aircraft wheels rpm is controlled only by the forward movement of the aircraft. Without that forward movement the wheel does nothing. Hence the conveyor does nothing for it has nothing to track and match. The wheel is freewheeling in that it has no independent power source providing torque to the wheel. The conveyor can only match the speed of the wheel which is dictated only by the forward movement of the aircraft. If the aircraft does not move, the wheels don't move.

Plane flies.
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Offline SaburoS

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #249 on: February 02, 2008, 12:04:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Imagine this; You and I are each holding an end of a trough with a ball bearing in the middle.  Your job is to keep the bearing “exactly” in the center.  I lower my end one inch and the ball starts to roll toward me.  When you see this, are you going to immediately give up and allow the bearing to roll all the way to my end?  Or, are you going to lower your end to get the bearing back to the center?


To stop that forward momentum, you have to apply a greater than matching force.

Plane flies.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline VERTEX

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Re: Re: Aircraft on a conveyor
« Reply #250 on: February 02, 2008, 12:04:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
So, you do recognize that there would be a difference...  Now imagine that the acceleration rate of the conveyor is doubled.  That “slightly greater takeoff roll” would now be “slightly greater” times 2… Right?  Now imagine that the acceleration rate of the conveyor is 10,000 times what you were initially imagining…  It is a very big force now.

Imagine a question that asks, “Could a team of mice be as strong as a team of men?”  If you assume that there are the same number of mice as men, then clearly the answer is no, the men are stronger.  But “team” is not defined.  “Team” for men could be two, and “Team” for mice could be 200,000.

In the question where the conveyor must match the plane’s speed, an analogy could be: pitting men against the same number of mice.  In the question where the conveyor must match the plane’s wheel speed, however, an analogy could be: pitting men against a much larger number of mice.  Don’t assume that they have to be the same number!


Actually upon thinking about it I take that back, I doubt the take off roll would change.

I think the added rolling resistance from the wheels extra rpm imparted by the conveyor would be negligable.

Just to clear up your belt sander test results, the reason the wheel is pulled back by the sander belt when its turned on is due to the inertia of the wheel at rest. The rest inertia must be overcome while the wheel spins up to belt sander speed.

At real life scales this wheel inertia would have a minimal effect on the take off roll distance of the aircraft.

But you are right, there is an effect. But not a large enough effect to counteract the final result that the airplane would fly.

Eskimo, do you agree the airplane will fly?

Offline eskimo2

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #251 on: February 02, 2008, 12:04:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Brownshirt
Imagine a Piper Cub taking off from a speeding carrier, starting its take-off run from the ship's bow and running to stern.

Do you really think it won't be able to take off ?


Please go back and read AKIron’s, eskimo2’s, Hitech’s and sluggish’s posts.  We are so beyond that level of explanation.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #252 on: February 02, 2008, 12:05:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
It sounds like you are so sure of yourself that you never bothered to watch these AVI's:


http://hallbuzz.com/movies/wheel_on_sander_250th.AVI



http://hallbuzz.com/movies/paper_treadmill.AVI

You certainly have not bothered to explain what is going on in them.


I have and you have yet to address each comment that I attached.

Plane flies.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline AKIron

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #253 on: February 02, 2008, 12:05:30 PM »
Just a little tangent to give us a break from this heated battle.

You're standing in boxcar that is sitting on a rail that is virtually frictionless. You're standing at one end of the boxcar and you throw a baseball at the far wall. What is the net result of this action?
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Offline VERTEX

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Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #254 on: February 02, 2008, 12:08:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Just a little tangent to give us a break from this heated battle.

You're standing in boxcar that is sitting on a rail that is virtually frictionless. You're standing at one end of the boxcar and you throw a baseball at the far wall. What is the net result of this action?


The boxcar would move in the direction you are not facing, when the ball hits the far wall of the boxcar the boxcar would stop.