Author Topic: Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...  (Read 30923 times)

Offline VERTEX

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #375 on: February 05, 2008, 06:08:45 PM »
eskimo.

Ok, so the conveyors job is to cancell out the wheels speed, and by this we mean the rotation of the tire?

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2008, 06:22:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
eskimo.

Ok, so the conveyors job is to cancell out the wheels speed, and by this we mean the rotation of the tire?


Straight acceleration requires energy.  Rotational acceleration also requires energy.  If not for an axle, a rotationally accelerating wheel on a conveyor belt also accelerates linearly down the belt.  This force applied to an axle is transferred to the plane.  If the rotational acceleration were enough, a full throttle plane could be held in place, or even pushed back.

Offline VERTEX

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #377 on: February 05, 2008, 06:24:11 PM »
you have not answered my question.

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #378 on: February 05, 2008, 06:31:31 PM »
No.

It is supposed to match the wheel’s speed.  It just so happens that when it does this it cancels out the planes speed/acceleration

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #379 on: February 05, 2008, 06:41:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Straight acceleration requires energy.  Rotational acceleration also requires energy.  If not for an axle, a rotationally accelerating wheel on a conveyor belt also accelerates linearly down the belt.  This force applied to an axle is transferred to the plane.  If the rotational acceleration were enough, a full throttle plane could be held in place, or even pushed back.

 
a 747 airliner, weighs around 400,000 pounds at landing lands at about 130 mph

When touching down, the mains spin up to 130 mph tangential speed within a fraction of a second.

During the chirp of the tires spinning up, the momentum of the aircraft is changed almost imperceptivity. Wheel brakes and thrust reversers are employed to slow the aircraft, which under only air and wheel drag would probably roll for several miles before coming to rest.

This ridiculous problem only makes sense if you suspend disbelief in a conveyor capable of ridiculous speeds. Speed of the conveyor would have to be hypersonic before wheel drag could overcome engine thrust.

Hypersonic speed would destroy not only the gear but the conveyor itself.

Hence under any real world conditions, this problem is stupid.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 06:46:18 PM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline VERTEX

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #380 on: February 05, 2008, 06:48:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
No.

It is supposed to match the wheel’s speed.  It just so happens that when it does this it cancels out the planes speed/acceleration


This is where you are fundamentally wrong, the conveyor is incapable of doing what you claim, it can only act on the wheels, the airplanes forward motion is independant because the wheels are free wheeling and the forward motion of the airplane is caused by thrust.

As a side note, I noticed in the other airplane on conveyor thread you answered correctly that the airplane would fly, so what the heck is up here?

Offline VERTEX

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #381 on: February 05, 2008, 06:51:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
a 747 airliner, weighs around 400,000 pounds at landing lands at about 130 mph

When touching down, the mains spin up to 130 mph tangential speed within a fraction of a second.

During the chirp of the tires spinning up, the momentum of the aircraft is changed almost imperceptivity. Wheel brakes and thrust reversers are employed to slow the aircraft, which under only air and wheel drag would probably roll for several miles before coming to rest.

This ridiculous problem only makes sense if you suspend disbelief in a conveyor capable of ridiculous speeds. Speed of the conveyor would have to be hypersonic before wheel drag could overcome engine thrust.

Hypersonic speed would destroy not only the gear but the conveyor itself.

Hence under any real world conditions, this problem is stupid.


You are right, the question is worded to confuse people, to make them think the wheels spin rate is important. Or that some how the travel of the conveyor belt affects the airplanes thrust. It has worked on some.

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #382 on: February 05, 2008, 07:02:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
a 747 airliner, weighs around 400,000 pounds at landing lands at about 130 mph

When touching down, the mains spin up to 130 mph tangential speed within a fraction of a second.

During the chirp of the tires spinning up, the momentum of the aircraft is changed almost imperceptivity. Wheel brakes and thrust reversers are employed to slow the aircraft, which under only air and wheel drag would probably roll for several miles before coming to rest.

This ridiculous problem only makes sense if you suspend disbelief in a conveyor capable of ridiculous speeds. Speed of the conveyor would have to be hypersonic before wheel drag could overcome engine thrust.

Hypersonic speed would destroy not only the gear but the conveyor itself.

Hence under any real world conditions, this problem is stupid.


I agree that it would be impossible to build, or if it were built as best we could it would probably explode after a second or two.  

I have landed in light bush planes with big tires, however, the force is more than perceptible.

The point of this question isn’t to debate how such a conveyor could be built, what materials the belt could be made of, how wide or long it must be, what the power source might be.  It also does not matter how the conveyor matches the plan’s speed “exactly”.  

In the plane speed question, the one where the conveyor only has to match the speed of the plane, the one where the plane takes off, we naturally accept that the conveyor somehow works: power, size, controls and all.  It doesn’t matter how impractical it would be to build such a contraption, or that it would be nearly impossible to make one that could handle a 747.  It doesn’t matter that some aircraft might experience tire failure when the effective wheel speed is doubled.

The point is that the question brings to light how many people misunderstand the forces at work; that the thrust of the prop is counteracted by the acceleration rate of the plane diminishing into the air drag on the wings and airframe.  The extra energy loaded into the wheels at these speed is negligible, not even worth mentioning in this question, the plane takes off.  For many people, studying this question opens up a new level of understanding not-so-obvious forces.

In the wheel speed question, if you also just accept that the conveyor exists as described, it opens up a new level of understanding not-so-obvious forces.

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #383 on: February 05, 2008, 07:03:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
This is where you are fundamentally wrong, the conveyor is incapable of doing what you claim, it can only act on the wheels, the airplanes forward motion is independant because the wheels are free wheeling and the forward motion of the airplane is caused by thrust.

As a side note, I noticed in the other airplane on conveyor thread you answered correctly that the airplane would fly, so what the heck is up here?


I'm talking about the original AH BBS question from last year:
Quote
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
A plane is standing on a runway that can move like a giant conveyor belt. The plane applies full forward power and attempts to take off. This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's wheel speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same but in the opposite direction, similar to a treadmill.

The question is:

Will the plane take off or not?

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #384 on: February 05, 2008, 07:05:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VERTEX
This is where you are fundamentally wrong, the conveyor is incapable of doing what you claim, it can only act on the wheels, the airplanes forward motion is independant because the wheels are free wheeling and the forward motion of the airplane is caused by thrust.
 


Please explain this then:


http://hallbuzz.com/movies/wheel_on_sander_250th.AVI


http://hallbuzz.com/movies/paper_treadmill.AVI

From what you are saying, the wheel should remain stationary as the sander accelerates.  At a constant speed, the speed of the wheels does not consume/absorb energy.  Acceleration is a different matter.

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #385 on: February 05, 2008, 07:15:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
I agree that it would be impossible to build, or if it were built as best we could it would probably explode after a second or two.  

I have landed in light bush planes with big tires, however, the force is more than perceptible.


More than perceptable?  Can you have that?

Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
The point of this question isn’t to debate how such a conveyor could be built, what materials the belt could be made of, how wide or long it must be, what the power source might be.  It also does not matter how the conveyor matches the plan’s speed “exactly”.  


So... ignoring that this is an impossible situation, we discuss that it takes energy to spin up a wheel.

All you need is a gyroscope or a spinning top or a flywheel and you can show that in a much simpler situation.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13375
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #386 on: February 05, 2008, 09:10:56 PM »
Bowing out of this one until next year or so.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline WWhiskey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3122
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #387 on: February 05, 2008, 11:32:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
I'm talking about the original AH BBS question from last year:

Again you are working on a false premiss!(spell check)

In order to have a test you must first find a base in reality, the second question does not have a basis in reality therefore cannot be tested!
 the 2nd question was not posed by an expert in the feild but was an adaptation of the original!  he has not come back in this thread and said otherwise that i have seen! if he does then i will stand corrected.
theory can be debated all day long but the facts can only be found in reality!

 The v-22 will fly in either test, it exists in this world but your magic belt does not! i would like to see your explanation if you think it wont!
Flying since tour 71.

Offline jigsaw

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1050
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #388 on: February 06, 2008, 02:01:25 AM »
Here's a different way to look at it....

You're putting along in your shiny spamcan at an airspeed of 100kts*.
Flying into a direct headwind of 100kts.  Your groundspeed is 0.  Why don't you fall out of the sky?


*for conversation sake TAS/IAS are the same and just listed as knots.

Offline SD67

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3218
Airplane on a Conveyor Belt...
« Reply #389 on: February 06, 2008, 03:21:27 AM »
The Force?
:lol
9GIAP VVS RKKA
You're under arrest for violation of the Government knows best act!
Fabricati diem, punc
Absinthe makes the Tart grow fonder