Author Topic: Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!  (Read 1940 times)

Offline mora

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2008, 12:43:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB73
it made a HUGE difference in mileage

Just how much? Theoretically the difference would be 3% if compared against 100% gasoline. But since it's unavailable the difference is less.

Offline lazs2

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2008, 02:22:07 PM »
angus... theory aside...  name one thing we have actually run out of.. not species or insects...  those come and go with or without us.   I bet there is oil fields bigger than any we have discovered so far...

lazs

Offline JB73

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2008, 02:29:40 PM »
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Originally posted by mora
Just how much? Theoretically the difference would be 3% if compared against 100% gasoline. But since it's unavailable the difference is less.
for my car at the time from 21 down to 18 MPG.

not 3% but 3 miles, or 14% or there about. From my experience 10 - 15% reduction was the norm.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2008, 04:21:08 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
angus... theory aside...  name one thing we have actually run out of.. not species or insects...  those come and go with or without us.   I bet there is oil fields bigger than any we have discovered so far...

lazs


We haven't RUN OUT YET. Well, we did kill some species straight out, and we did pretty well with razing some species from hoards down to practically nothing, and that includes humans too....
Now, for your "bet" I ask thee 2 questions:
1: where did the oil fields come from?
2: Where are they?

Then the 3rd.  - What is wrong with growing biofuel on land that before got grants for NOT being used?

My 4rth is actually why USA goes for corn-ethanol while Europe is more mixed up with ethanol, gas and bio-oil...all confusing...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline rpm

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2008, 07:25:47 PM »
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Originally posted by Maverick
Uh you might want to check on that corn thing again. Even if all the corn ethanol is from feed corn, that means other corn would be diverted from human consumption corn to make up the feed shortfall. Hence the higher prices for corn used for human consumption as well as feed. That means any and everything related to the use of corn then also rises in price and that has already happened.
Mav, there are many different types of corn. Corn engineered for food, corn engineered for oil, another for ethanol, one for feed, ect.,ect...

Allotments are handed out by the USDA for each type. They want more of "Type A" they increase the allotments and put more land in production. They don't take away from "Type B" to make up the difference. There is plenty of land the government keeps idle thru allotment subsidies.

They do not divert "Type A" corn to "Type B" use either.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2008, 03:30:47 AM »
Doing travels in Germany last year, I poached some ripe corn from a field.
I boiled it. Forever. It was mostly unedible. It was the one for animal feed :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Ghosth

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2008, 07:32:59 AM »
A couple  other minor point about costs.

Back in the early 1970's wheat sold for aprox 4 dollars 50 cents a bushel of grain. Thats roughly 60 lbs worth. There was very close to 12 cents worth of wheat in each loaf of bread.

Yet bread loaves sold on the store for 1.25$ each.

Wheat prices spike, went up to 6 and 7 $ a bushel. Ok so now the wheat in that loaf of bread went from 12 cents to what, 18-20 cents max? 50% increase, more or less.

Yet bread loaf prices went up to 2.50$ on the shelves. Everyone down the line heard that farmers were getting more, so they all raised their prices accordingly. Can't have farmers getting rich without us getting some after all.

For most of the last 30 years, grain prices have been held low.
Lots of government programs aimed at just exactly that, keep costs low, keep food cheap. Well now in part due to higher transport costs the cat is out of the bag.

Corn that 15 months ago sold for 2.05$ a bushel is over 5.00$ a bushel and climbing. Wheat, sunflower, canola, soybeans are all hitting record prices as well. In part because so much corn was grown, means competition for those bushels of wheat and soybeans on the market is fierce.

MARK MY WORDS, and mark them well.

For ever dimes worth of wheat in a loaf of bread you will pay a dollar.
Not to the farmer, don't blame him. But to all the middlemen. The trucker that hauls it, the miller that grinds it, the trucker that hauls the flour, the Baker that bakes it into bread, and the trucker that hauls the bread all take their piece of the pie.

Meat costs are going to skyrocket. To put  good marbled meat on livestock  takes grain. Grain just got expensive. If you double the price of grain you'll at least double the price of meat. This is bottom line, Feed lot operators have to feed them something. They will pass on any increased costs to you.

Stock up NOW on staples while you can afford them. Anything that keeps well, has a long shelf life. Rice, beans, Pasta, it may not be exciting, but it will keep you alive.

The genie is out of the bottle now. As long as we have increasing grain and fuel costs you will see increasing food costs.

Offline lazs2

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2008, 07:57:42 AM »
angus.. when I was growing up ALL the scientists told us that oil came from one species.. they even used one of em for logos on gas stations.

Then.. as I got older.. they kinda changed their minds but.. they said we would run out by 1980 or so.

One thing we have never been short of is hand wringing drama queens.

I bet there are oil fields bigger than all the ones we have discovered so far.   They might be hard to get to but.. I bet they are there.

nope.. we haven't run out of anything yet.   Those who say we will have been wrong... oh.. let's round it off and call it... 100% of the frigging time.

lazs

Offline Casca

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2008, 09:41:55 AM »
I am not anti bio fuel.  Ethanol has a part to play.  It is useful to meet requirements for oxygenated fuels for instance.  It is useful as a boutique fuel for special applications.  Here is the problem:

Earth has a surface area of 196,940,400 square miles, slightly less than a perfect ball with a diameter of 7913.5 miles (which is the mean diameter of the Earth).
The surface area of the seven continents and all the islands of the world is about 57 million miles, while the total area of the six habitable continents (Antarctica excluded) is around 52 million square miles.

Including Antarctica , over one fifth of the globe's land mass is under water (oceans, lakes, rivers, etc.) or ice. This leaves about 45 million square miles of exposed land.

The human population on earth has crossed six billion. If we distribute all the exposed land evenly among all mankind, 133 people would have to share one square mile. What that means is that every single person on Earth, man woman and child would have close to five acres of land for his or her use. More precisely, each person would get 209,000 square feet of land, or a square plot of land 457 feet on each side.

Not all this land can be used beneficially however. A significant portion of the Earth's exposed land is unhabitable or cannot be used for any agricultural purpose. Large portions lie in the far north. Large portions are extremely arid. Large portions are very mountainous. In sum, only about one fourth of all the land on earth, or somewhat more than 12 million square miles, is arable.

Today, over half of the arable land in the world is in fact not under cultivation. Bringing the unused land into service in many cases would require huge investments of money and effort, and would do considerable damage to the environment. For example, only about 28% of the arable land on the African continent is used for growing crops. Immense tracts of forests or jungles would have to be cleared to bring the rest of the arable land on that continent to productive use.

Thus, only about one eighth of each imaginary plot of land distributed to each person is land which is under cultivation. In effect, each person has a piece of land about 26,000 square feet (a square 161 feet on each side or just a bit more than ½ an acre) at his or her disposal on which to grow all that he or she needs.  Now unless the world population starts to decrease, which is a trend I have failed to perceive yet, that half acre is going to keep getting smaller and smaller.  Even if we start trying to put more land in production we will have to fight the earth muffins hammer and tongs, it will be expensive and will still, ultimately, not be enough to sustain the world population at some point.

I can remember the apocoylaptic screeds of the 60's and 70's such as The Population Bomb by Paul Erlich.  We were supposed to be suffering worldwide famines by the 80s.  We managed to forestall the gloomy outcomes predicted in these books through production agriculture but the issues raised in them are still valid.  

Now ethanol can be produced at a rate of about 2.8 gallons per bushel.  In the part of the world that I work in we are getting about 200 bushels of corn per acre so you can use your personal half acre to produce about 280 gallons of ethanol.  Hey that doesn't sound bad...but wait...we had inputs which we have to subtract to figure out how much energy we are producing.  We had to fertilize, run the machinery and, in some cases, irrigate.  Then we had to transport the corn to the ethanol plant and process the ethanol.  So what do we gain?  Well a Berkeley study of three years ago says we are actually losing energy.  Of course they were Berkeley professors and took the position that you really had to add the energy it took to mine the ore and smelt the metal that made the tractor.  That doesn't seem fair to me so we can look at the Corn Grower's Association estimates of a net energy gain of around 20%.  Using this more optimistic number we have a net energy gain of a mere 56 gallons of ethanol for your half acre.  Since ethanol has about 2/3 the energy of gasoline that equates to about 37 gallons of gas.

Now you need to use your half acre to produce everything you are going to eat for the year as well as much of what you wear.  So you can use your half acre to produce about 19 ounces of ethanol a day.  That's not terrible news and equates to about 47 ounces of 80 proof.  You can stay good and drunk but eventually you are going to want a bowl of corn flakes and a new pair of socks.

If ethanol is going to be produced on cropland, there is not enough in the world to make ethanol a viable energy alternative in any meaningful way, two or three percentage points of energy consumption maybe.

The inevitable corollary to this is that the more land that is diverted to energy production the more expensive commodities produced on the remaining land become.  We are already seeing this in the case of corn which is now trading at around 5 dollars a bushel after hovering around 2 dollars a bushel from 1973 until about two years ago.  Of course the market is being distorted by the massive ethanol subsidies and some people are already wondering if we are seeing a commodities "bubble".  A commodities bubble preceeded the Great Depression by the way.  Just sayin.
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Offline Maverick

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2008, 09:48:09 AM »
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Originally posted by rpm
Mav, there are many different types of corn. Corn engineered for food, corn engineered for oil, another for ethanol, one for feed, ect.,ect...

Allotments are handed out by the USDA for each type. They want more of "Type A" they increase the allotments and put more land in production. They don't take away from "Type B" to make up the difference. There is plenty of land the government keeps idle thru allotment subsidies.

They do not divert "Type A" corn to "Type B" use either.


If it weren't for the fact that the price of corn has tripled. If it weren't for the fact that the price of corn related items (corn oil, corn additives in other foods has gone way up (including the corn starch based doggie chew treat we used to buy for our dog at $1.75 last seen at $7.50 when we could find it at wallyworld). If it weren't for the fact that the price of meat and other livestock related items have gone up with the price of corn, I might think you had something there.

The use of ethanol is now mandated to increase rather substantially. The switch grass and other means of producing ethanol is simply not on the ground and ready to run. That means corn will continue to be used to produce the billions of gallons of ethanol, soybeans will continue to be used for biodiesel and the price of food will rise even more steeply. Ethanol will not be able to take over for the use of petro fuels for transportation alone much less other uses in this country. It's a stop gap and a weak one at that.
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Offline Angus

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2008, 09:51:43 AM »
Hence my question of why growing ethanol crops on good land,- food rape is much more effective,and then maybe the interesting switchgrass.
Anyway, Lazs, I think you will still agree with me that
- growing biofuel will delay running out of fossile fuel
- it's better to grow biofuel on a slab of land rather than substitizing nothing on it! (And that nothing will normally be weeds)
- it's a good move in the sence of reducing the might of the barons of big oil, - such as the Arab states

And we will run out... One reason we are not in a worse state is the fact that not all people of the globe consume the same amount of energy.
You can try to picture the energy consumption of the globe if every soal on earth would require the same average as a citizen of the U.S. Try gas for starters and then compare it with the rate of which it is beinbg pumped out today ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline EagleDNY

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2008, 02:40:57 PM »
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I see the biggest problem being that all these eggheads scream for the world to start using ethanol and it will save the planet, and they haven't got the science to back it up.  

It's just like the theory of man made global climate change.  It's a theory that is not proven.  So stop trying to act like it is.


I think you are right about that - I'm in with the "it's the sun, stupid" as the source of global warming.  That being said, I'm OK with biofuels, both biodiesel and ethanol, as I would vastly prefer to pay ADM or some farmers co-op for my fuel than some middle-eastern (or south american) dictator.  Expanding the US agricultural sector can't do anything but good for this country in the long run.

E85 does give you less mileage - but it is supposed to cost less as well.  Fuel grade ethanol on the CBOT is around 2.19 a gallon, which is high.  Expect that to drop as more supply comes on line.  

The biggest reason the farmers pushed corn to make ethanol was because at the time ethanol started being traded on the CBOT as fuel, corn was trading at $2 a bushel, which meant that a single corn contract (5,000 bushels) was worth about $10K to a farmer.  It takes about 3 corn contracts to make a single ethanol contract (29,000 gallons), and that ethanol contract was trading just shy of $2, meaning that $30,000 worth of corn made $58,000 worth of ethanol - a good deal for the farmers who were getting hammered on $2 corn.  Thats why you see so many farmers co-ops building ethanol plants -  not because it is good for the environment, because it was good for the farmers bottom line.

Now we have $5 corn (which the farmers also like), and $2.19 ethanol - when the farmers can add switchgrass or soybeans or some other profitable fuel crop into their crop rotation, you will see that happen too.  Soybeans happens to be a good dual use crop - you crush the oil out of it for biodiesel, then use the soybean meal as high-protein animal feed.  

We've got to get off oil folks - until somebody figures a way to make, store, and distribute hydrogen economically, biofuels are our best bet.

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Offline lazs2

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2008, 02:41:59 PM »
angus.. it sounded pretty logical when they told me we would be out of oil by 1980 too.     I don't think you have a clue.   I don't think anyone does and I don't think anyone can say how much oil we have or when we will run out or even if it is possible to.

I have nothing against using excess land and crops for fuel...  so long as it doesn't do too much damage.

I just wonder why GM just partnered up with that bio fuel outfit.  The outfit says that they intend to make billions of gallons of fuel at the cost of millions of gallons of energy.

Anyone know anything about that?   Just happened to hear the guy on NPR

lazs

Offline Angus

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2008, 03:08:36 PM »
So, Eagle,- the ethanol production is basically a business-related issue as I understand it. Doesn't surprize me, - not the first time that short-term business related issues override long-term common sense.

And Lazs, - I don't know what frigging predictions you were listening to in the 70's. That applies to global cooling as well as running out of oil. Maybe a religious radio station rather than scientists? For in my case, I recall GW being predicted, and the human race running out of fossil fuels in the 21st century, with the 1st symptom being the price jacking up.

And what's happening?

Silly that all those substities payed for NOT using land didn't go to the project of growing bio-fuel and testing various technical methods instead......we'd have 30 more years of production and application experience...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline SPKmes

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Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2008, 03:26:47 PM »
It all comes down to one simple thing, If man made it, it's bad.