Author Topic: Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if  (Read 1928 times)

Offline Suave

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2008, 09:18:03 AM »
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Originally posted by Thruster
Correct me please if I'm wrong. But prior to Afghanistan, did the Soviet Union ever preemptively invade a foreign Country?
 
Not by proxy mind you, but an actual overt act of war?


That's an odd question. They kicked off WWII by an invasion of Poland coordinated with the nazis. Then they gave an ultimatum to the baltic countries and finland. Finland was the only one to call their bluff, hence the Winter War. As for pre afghanistan, well Hungary and then Czechaslovakia.

Offline BlauK

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2008, 09:22:28 AM »
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Now here's where it gets tricky.  The reason that Japan attacked American interests in the pacific, and NOT the Soviet Union was because of the level of infiltration of Soviet Agents in the Japanese government.



Wow... :confused:
Do you actually have some sources to support this claim?

AFAIK, the Japanese goals were at the Pacific. There would have been nothing to gain to these ends by attacking Soviets. Japan had already kicked their butt and repulsed Russia's expansion attempts towards far east in 1905.


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Offline Coshy

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2008, 09:27:19 AM »
Something else to consider is Americas isolationist mentality. Had Great Britan not been at war with Germany, it is entirely possible that America would have stopped with Japan.
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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2008, 09:34:51 AM »
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Originally posted by Suave
As for pre afghanistan, well Hungary and then Czechaslovakia.



Yup,
(Germany 1944)
Hungary 1956
Checkoslovakia 1968
Poland 1980

Notice the 12 year intervals... I wonder what would have happened in 1992 without their "collapse" in 1991. :eek:


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Offline lasersailor184

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 09:37:04 AM »
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Originally posted by BlauK
Wow... :confused:
Do you actually have some sources to support this claim?

AFAIK, the Japanese goals were at the Pacific. There would have been nothing to gain to these ends by attacking Soviets. Japan had already kicked their butt and repulsed Russia's expansion attempts towards far east in 1905.


Sorge, Ozaki and Saionji were all well connected Japanese communists who used as much influence as they had with Japanese leadership to convince them to attack the pacific, as opposed to Soviet Union.

This is page 69 of "Blacklisted by History: The Untold History of Senator Joe McCarthy."  For this piece, the author M. Stanton Evans cites the US army espionage case against Richard Sorge which had help from Japanese Prosecutors.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 09:38:17 AM »
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Originally posted by BlauK
Thruster,
what do you actually mean by "pre-emptively"? ...  with other countries' concent? .. or something else?

Soviets invaded or tried to invade e.g.:
1939 Poland
1939 Finland
1940 Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
1940 Romania (Bessarabia)

The 1940 events above did not come into fighting though... I think, but 1939 events did.


Another one with this...

Poland ceased to exist by Sept 17th 1939, USSR just got back what belonged to it. Churchill said that Stalin saved several million people from Hitler, and he was right.

Finland is the only case of preemptive attack, to have some space and bases in case of "indirect aggression", and look, 1941 proved that Stalin was right.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania - what invasion? They were allowed to join the Union after a proper democratic procedure, I mean - really democratic, not like "democracy" in Iraq we see now.

Bessarabia/Bukovina - was it an "invasion"? I thought Romanians agreed to give up this lands, there were no hostilities.

All this "invasions" are just kid's games in sandbox compared to Western foreign policy.

Offline BlauK

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 09:39:37 AM »
Angus,
have you by any chance seen this page?

Valtakunta

"You are reading alternative history. Reich - The Comprehensive Solution is a fiction set in a parallel universe in which history has diverged from the course of events generally known, or more simply put, it tries to answer to the captivating question: “What if Germany had won World War II”?"

Neuropa - in english


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Offline Angus

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 09:42:01 AM »
Hitler smelled an upcoming struggle with Stalin, and I tend to think he was right.
He lost the campaign by a margin, - Leningrad-Moscow-Stalingrad,- bear in mind that the outcome at Stalingrad is more than a year after the outcome at Moscow,and Stalingrad is very far east.
With that line held, he would have sat on most of the USSR's production capacity, - probably in the region of 2/3rd to 3/4th. So IMHO, had he held that, the USSR would have been doomed.
The biggest issue about the U.K. IMHO is that they existed as an enemy. That bound down a stunning amount of troops and resources, - much more than ever used to get as far as the gates of Moscow. (70 divisions were used).
Then is the real factor of losses, but it's much smaller.....still:
- From July 1940 to Barbarossa, the LW looses more aircraft to just the RAF than to the USSR in the whole of 1944! And 1944 is a high production year there and the LW had as well lost air superiority over the eastern front.
- Losses in land-forces were not so great between 7/40 and Barbarossa, except in the mediterranian pocket where there were some. But not enough to make a difference IMHO.
-Axis losses (KIA, WIA, POW) in the med untill the time of Stalingrad & then Kursk were considerable. You are talking of 300.000 Axis POW's alone in Tunisia at the time of Stalingrad.
- Same goes to air and sea. Untill the turnaround in 1943, the Axis lost a lot on the western side,and 1943 marks the year when Uncle Sam (who in 1940 Hitler wanted to avoid war with at all costs) starts kickin in with a heavy boot.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Suave

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 09:43:07 AM »
Well they did invade Lithuania in 1991.

Offline BlauK

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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 09:48:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Another one with this...

#############
 


Shoo, shoooo... comrade Pavel. This is not your discussion ;)

Naturally we all know how all smaller countries WANTED to give some or all of their land to the big peaceful bear :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 09:51:51 AM by BlauK »


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Offline Bruv119

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 09:52:04 AM »
It has to be noted that not until D-Day did the US and UK have "enough" forces built up to attempt to invade.  This is with the UK acting as an aircraft/ naval blockade on Germany.

The amount of Axis forces tied up to defend and fight in N africa unleashed on Russia would have been mutliplied big time.   Allied Bombing in Europe non-existant with Germany not having to worry about defending their production.

In my cynical view it was as if us allies sat back let the bulk of the german army freeze to death then go for it.  Stalin no doubt was certain of this.


Hitler could have had it in the bag by the end 1942.  Merely a year after the U.S decided they wanted in.   Even so I believe America wouldn't have liked to fight in europe at all without the UK as a base.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2008, 09:52:26 AM »
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Originally posted by BlauK
Yup,
(Germany 1944)
Hungary 1956
Checkoslovakia 1968
Poland 1980

Notice the 12 year intervals... I wonder what would have happened in 1992 without their "collapse" in 1991. :eek:


Poland 1980!?

Can you please tell me what happened there? Please, educate me on this subject!

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2008, 09:53:26 AM »
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Originally posted by Suave
Well they did invade Lithuania in 1991.


Just like US troops invaded LA in 1993

Offline ZetaNine

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Re: Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2008, 09:55:24 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
I know this has been adressed before, but here I go again.
I am assisting in a project (Essay for a masters-degree) and the topic is WW2 related. There were many to chose from, but it ended up with the thesis "If Germany would have made peace with the UK (I think the offer was issued 19th of July 1940), then the USSR would have lost the fight with the Germans".
This is in some 2 main phases, - the 1941 campaign and then the aftermath at Stalingrad.
Each phase takes into account the direct losses that Germany sustained from the UK at a given date (accumulated), then other effects such as strategical disadvantage due to the war as well as indirect losses of force due to binding up troops instead of using them on the battlefield.
Then there is the final "if", which is trickier, possible difference in connections with nations that later joined in, - Japan and the USA...but that's something to slippery to use as a basis, just good for the fun factor...
I've been doing some digging, but all points and input is welcome.
I found John Keegan to be a good source, but I'm all ears for more!
Oh, and my opinion on the thesis is a yes. It was before, but now it's definate!







Angus....a good place to begin your thesis would be Neville Chamberlain....I think he'd be a good catalyst for all the "what ifs" to stem from...and be related to...since Chamberlain has gone down in history as a failure for trying to make peace with hitler.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 10:02:51 AM by ZetaNine »

Offline Angus

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Germany-USSR, the ultimate what-if
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2008, 10:00:53 AM »
INteresting BlauK. TY.
ANyway, as an alternative history example, I am trying to begin with seeing how much force Hitler could have mustered, had he been able to concentrate on only one enemy after the summer of 1940.
As for my belief what would have happened had he succeeded (and this you would agree with, Boroda), I think it would have been ugly and sick bloodbath with no comparison in human history as we know it today.
After all, the campaign against the USSR was not just a conquest, it was a cauldron plan, aiming at the destruction of the USSR forces. This is one example where Guderian protested to Hitler,  he found it most sensible to catch key-points (Leningrad + Moscow at least) and lock in before the winter. For an army, it makes a difference WHERE you are on a bad (and cold) day, as the Germans learned quite bitterly.
So, IMHO, the Germans would have needed a lot more troops to succeed, since they played it this way. A whole lot!
Will be back with some strength numbers later.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)