looking for some helpful advice

[dkff49]

I tried posting this once before but I did while very tired and I think that the subject line may have caused everybody to overlook this. Sorry if this is not the case.


I had this very fun fight couple of days ago. I was very proud of myself for lasting as long as I did. I was even more proud of myself after I realized that one of them is a very experienced pilot.

I do realize there are several mistakes that I made and some of them may have made the fight come out a little more to the good for me had I not made these mistakes.

I know at about 1:52 I had the stall because I was greedy and trying to put one out quickly and did not watch my speed this I chalk up to stupidity because I knew I was very closee to stall speed.

at 4:10 I became target fixated because I realized that I had the P51 bled down and knew I had a shot at getting him (I think I should have said ok that is good now focus "a little" more on F4U since he still has "E"). But I did not.

At 6:40 I sustained a PW and started to black out at 6:57 leading to me losing SA and therefore assisting in me losing the fight.

This was a fun fight and I would not trade anything for the fun that I had and both pilots had me going for some time and I have no complaints about either but if anybody has any advise please reply. I am still learning and having more fun the more I learn

thanks in advancefor your assistance

Spit9 vs F4U and P51

[Allen Rune]

I'm not much of a regular player but I can offer one bit of advice, don't keep turning into them if you see that they have a shot or are going to have one. If you think you can't turn in time, immediately change direction and try to throw him off.

[The Fugitive]

I didn't look at in the last thread because I hate waiting for that DL site you used, but I did this time.

Only ran thru the fight one time, but for what it's worth, here's my thoughts. The 2 that were fighting you weren't that good, you made them look better than they are. A good pair working together would have had you down in a total of 3 passes..... the way you where flying.

I hope your views are set different than mine. In most of the film neither plane is in view. When fighting 2 you should be bouncing from one plane to the other assessing who's coming' and how fast, and which way do you need to turn them.

In most of the film you spent most of your time trying to turn nose to nose with one guy or the other, your wasting E.  Turn only enough to spoil a good shot. Give them a "6" shot, or a "flat profile" from the side. NEVER give them a "top" or "bottom" view for a shot....too much plane for them to hit. If you had kept extending during the fight you would have forced them both into a single area, and with these two flying the way they were they would have been coming at you at the same time making it even easier to avoid.

Last, by judging from where they are coming from, you can force them in to a bad spot. If a guys diving in on your 6, you can start a slow turn to the left. As he closes tighten the turn. when he a 1000 out (depending on his speed) you can barrel roll to the right. As he corrects for his shot, he burns more E, and with the barrel roll you get a quick shot window. Even when your "on the defensive" you can think and work toward the "offensive" don't just flop about waiting for them to hit ya.

Like I said, I'm no "pro", but those are my tips, take'um for what ya think they are worth. OH, and learn to fly a real plane !!!  

[dkff49]

Thanks for the repliesI do appreciate it. My plan throughout the fight was to bleed their "E" down since they came in on me with alot of altitude and planes that very much so handle higher diving speeds better than my Spit9. That was the reason for the hard turns which most of the time I was trying to turn back on their six hoping to maybe get a quick shot off. But I am sure that my timing needs to also be better.

Fugitive I don't know exactly what you mean by a real plane but Ido prefer a plane for the turn fight only because I like the challenge of taking a faster opponent and bleed him down. Right now if I would last 3 turns against 2 people working together I would consider myself lucky and still be proud of myself because I have just started to last that many turns in a fight even in 1v1. Most of my kills until a month or so ago were more from happening across enemies at times when I had the right advantage and the enemy would have to reverse on me almost from the start and most half decent players would.

I do appreciate the incite from you more experienced players and I will try to work on those things that have been discussed

Thanks

[Allen Rune]

No problem, have a good one

[DoNKeY]

Fugitive's just joking FYI, but for real, the only man's plane is a P-38!:aok

donkey

PS:  I'd look at the film and try to help, but I'd just end up making you worse.

[dkff49]

I actually do like flying the P38 from time to time but do not have the patience to try and learn it all at once. So I am learning it slowly.

Sorry did not realize that you were joking Fugitive. Thanks for your input much appreciated.

[dkff49]

if anybody has any suggestions for a free site to  host films where there is no wait I will post there.

thanks

[The Fugitive]

Yes I was just kidding when I was talking about a real plane.

Turning hard to try and get around for a shot is burning your E,not theirs. The trick is to give them a shot, then take it away. Lead them to a place YOU want to go then slid out of the way.

In your fight, you were wasting E like crazy, and they were just a poor pair which is why I think you lasted as long as you did. Not saying you "suck", but they sucked worst  

[Mace2004]

I thought you did a very nice job.  Getting the 2v1 down to a 1v1 makes all the difference in the world and there was only one serious mistake you made.  I'll hit that first.  This actually had nothing at all to do with the 2v1 since you had already eliminated the P51 but once you got the F4 into a flat scissors at the end you screwed up by motoring away from him rather than continuing the scissors.  You had 150-160 mph as he passed off to your left side.  If you had reversed immediately and pulled hard into him you probably could have neutralized him as he had more speed, instead, you essentially leveled your wings, he reversed and shot you down.  I think maybe you lost sight?

As far as your opponents are concerned, here's what I saw:  First, they failed to keep the pressure on you.  This is very common in AH (especially it seems with P38s).  Your opponents had both E and position advantage on you for almost the entire fight yet failed to press home their advantage.  Both opponents extended out beyond 3k on numerous occasions, that's a whole mile.  On at least one occasion the Pony extended all the way out to 5k.  Essentially, they allowed you alternating 1v1 duels as the other extended too far.  What they did well was to stay out of phase.  They extended and attacked from different directions.  Had they stayed out of phase but kept the fight smaller you would not have had enough time to defend against one without the other being right there to force an immediate defense again and the fight would not have lasted.

As for you, there was the scissors mistake you made which is the only major brain fart.  Other than that there were opportunities that you failed to capitalized on.  First, as Fugitive mentioned, you should have extended more.   Instead, on numerous occasions you turned to place yourself right underneath one of your opponents with no opportunity to get your nose up to him.  This is not where you want to be.  

Once you defend and the guy extends turn and run out his extended six o'clock.  That will maximize your separation from him and force him to turn a full 180 degrees to get his nose back in your direction.  By flying directly underneath him all he has to do is point straight down and he can work a pure vertical fight.  Sure, you may be doing your best turn rate but all he has to do is roll to negate your turn and keep you in position for an attack.  You're pitting your turn rate against his roll rate and you will lose against every airplane in AH if you do this.  

If you extend he has a much greater horizontal distance to travel to reach you thus burning more of his E.  Expanding on this more, you need to know where each plane is.  By extending and placing both opponents behind you, you are putting them in phase and reducing your threat sector.  If you can get them into phase, a defense maneuver against one of them is essentially a defensive move against both and it's much easier to keep sight of both which really simplifies the problem.

Most people do not understand this concept well but turning nose on to a guy is not about HOing, it's about taking away angles and neutralizing him.  By turning directly into him and taking him close aboard you are eliminating his turning room while maximizing your separation after the merge.  You take a high speed opponent 180 out and you know you have a good 10-15 seconds before he will become a threat again letting you deal with the other guy.  

For the most part, you did this well but there are a couple of things you could improve on.  First, you really need to pass him close aboard, on a couple of these merges you gave your opponent too much turning room.  Also, on several occasions you turned nose on way to early (3-4k yds).  A guy at 3k yds is not a threat yet (be a different issue if we had Sidewinders).   You cut short your extension and helped them to stay out of phase.  Use extensions to isolate the threat and build your E while burning theirs.  You can then come back nose on to take away their angles followed by another extension.  

Another technique you could have used against the F4U when he went vertical over you (and since the Pony was too far to be a factor during a lot of the fight) would be to take the fight vertical yourself.  You could have unloaded and extended just a bit as he went up followed by a nose low slicing turn to a position under him.  Going nose low in the reverse gives you speed and, instead of turning flat the way you did, dive down under him and then pull straight up for a vertical merge as he comes down.  After the merge he would have been below you with you in a good position for a vertical reversal to get inside his turn as he came back up and a possible shot.  Mind you, this would not be a good idea had the Pony been where he should have been as a vertical move like that would (should) have made you easy pickings for him.

Overall, very nice fight, hope my critique helps.

[Spatula]

Above is some good advice, especially from Mace, but i want to add some of my perspective if i may.

1. Looking at how you use the view system, it becomes apparent you are not keeping enough of an eye on the situation. If that was me, you would see easily twice the number of head movements and better target tracking through the views. This is very important. There was at least 2 or 3 occasions where you are target fixated on killing or following another aircraft while the other is behind you shooting or making high-speed shooting passes at. You were unaware of them until you hear them shooting. Had they been better shots, you wouldn't have lasted as long as you did. You've got to keep an eye on both/all of the targets/threats in order to know how to plan your next moves. Planning for one only is ignoring the others.

2. Take a more holistic approach to your movements. Instead of thinking of 1st defend, then re-aquire, then try to shoot, think of it more as all being the one fluid move. Think of the bigger picture, think of how you're going to get behind him to get the shot off which just so happens to keep you out their gunsite. There's a subtle difference in mindset.

3. Theres plenty of places where you could have used lead-turns and turn back into them to cause overshoots, but you dont take up those opportunities, instead you keep turning until you pass under their nose. This goes back to point 2, you're thinking of defense, then attack, not attack which happens to be a defense

[dkff49]

Thanks for all the replies guys I do appreciate this. I knew that there some areas I could improve on and Isee now that the biggest is probably not turning too sharply while trying to avoid getting shot but make the turns only sharp enough to throw them off while maintaining my speed to be able to get a shot off on their six. I see this is probably more the reason I do not get more shots and not nearly as much as timing. I will try to work on this more. Ijust get over anxious when they are doing exactly what I plan for them to do and then I over do my counters.

Mace thanks for the detailed response I do appreciate it. That was exactly what I was looking for. Where you mentioned that in the flat scissors it looked like I tried to run away, I think you witnessed me blacking out from the pilot wound. The viewer does not show this but I know that it happened once and I had to hit the auto pilot. I do not normally run from any  turn fight because these are my favorites especially when come down to a scissors. This sometimes gets me into trouble though because there are fighters much more suited to this type of fighting. I get so into this style of fighting that my squadmates have to constantly tell me not to turn with certain fighters because I do usually try.But hey it is fun though.

Thanks again to all that responded and Fugitive I will try to remember that you have a sense of humor and try to add sarcasm to your postings. It isso hard to read that in text(LOL).

thanks again

[The Fugitive]

LOL!!!! I just thought that big SAPP sign in my signature was enough to show what a "real" plane is  

[choker41]

Hey bro just saw your post.  Your coming along just great.  I'm sure glad some of these great guys gave you advice.  I'm still too new at this myself.  A lot of very good advice here too.  Just remember to try to store a little E in those turns.  Don't always make flat turns.  Nose up and store a little E and to reach your maximum turn speed sooner.  Nose down to release that E and save your WEP.  Work your throttle in a turn.  Don't always use 100% or WEP.  Just ask me or Stroker1 what kind of advantage you have in your plane vs. opponents.  I'll talk to ya later about this.  Wtg.  Blackhawks are very proud to have you on our squad.  Eventually you'll be shooting Stroker down.  One of the best things to do is:  Go to the DA with one or two of us and tune to channel 224.  Or the training areana.  Been there many of times with stroker and guys from Precision.  I don't care who you are, 2v1 is always difficult.  You about pulled it off.

[stroker71]

For some reason I can't look at your fight...it won't let me DL it.  I talked to Choker at work today about it.  When your in a scissors don't flat turn...make your nose do a figure 8 you won't lose as much E that way.  And if your in a turn fight use the throttle alot and keep your head turning.  These other guys that posted know more than me but I am learning too.  Anytime you see me we can go to the TA or DA and work on somethings....i think that's what I should do being the CO.  Also if you ever look at the training section there are some really good videos there of ACM's.  You can also contact a trainer and get pro help.  Multiple cons with E  on you always sucks.  And get the Avatar I use it's alittle more clear....and Choker fix your sig so you have our squad name in there....and that's an order..lol