Pakistan Bans You Tube.com, ISP's Block All Access

[JimmyZ]

If the three little pigs is "insulting to Islam", 99% of anything on youtube is gonna piss 'em off. Why bother.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by trax1
Exactly, once you give in to one groups demands then you open the door to all the others to request something they find offensive to be removed.

The hardest piece of information / entertainment to have removed is the first.  Once that is removed, it is easy to have everything else pulled for any reason imaginable.


South Park - Cartoon Wars.

[B@tfinkV]

it's not my country and its not my business. they can do whatever they want, as long as they dont ban beastiality vids i wont complain.

[OOZ662]

Under this thinking pattern, shouldn't the internet be banned everywhere because somewhere on it, there's something insulting?

Further, should we be banned from exiting our homes so that we don't encounter anything insulting? Should windows be banned so we can't see such an insulting world?

Come off it already. There's usually enough info in the title and description to tell that it might insult you...so don't watch it. Or, you could just not go to the site if you think it's against your beliefs.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by SIG220
But Bestiality is not a religion, is it??  

No but neither is sodomy, polygamy, and abortion.

The point is youtube already engages in censorship (see here http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DlNn_VZajr3Q ) . So an Islamic *nation* asking for the content to be flagged (something youtube is obviously able to do) is not a big ask imho. If it were an islamic group in the US asking for the content to be blocked I'd say "get bent".

OOZ662 are you comfortable viewing child pornography? Do you feel everyone has the right to view it? Do you think you should have the right to view bestiality (and anyone on the internet)?

If I were to link you to a video and said hey guys heres a great ww2 guncam and in the middle of that video was some bestiality - in a lot of countries you'd be committing a crime. Take that example and apply it to an islamic country with their far stricter laws.

You guys are showing a very limited perception of the world, law, and it's impact on you. Censorship is rife on the net, if you don't think so I don't think you know much about what goes on behind the scenes.

[AWwrgwy]

Got 20 minutes to watch something about people being outraged about entertainment content?

Zappa on Crossfire

Glad no one wants to limit your choices in the good old U.S.A.

But it's true. Control the people by limiting their access to any other views, whether you agree or disagree with them.

wrngway

[bozon]

I can't find anything wrong in asking content to be removed from youtube.
I also can't find anything wrong in asking for gravity to be reduced.
And I can't find anything wrong in youtube telling them to get bent.

[OOZ662]

Originally posted by Vulcan
OOZ662 are you comfortable viewing child pornography? Do you feel everyone has the right to view it? Do you think you should have the right to view bestiality (and anyone on the internet)?

If I were to link you to a video and said hey guys heres a great ww2 guncam and in the middle of that video was some bestiality - in a lot of countries you'd be committing a crime. Take that example and apply it to an islamic country with their far stricter laws.

Alright, fine. From your viewpoint then. Say we decide censorship is the best thing since sliced bread. Now, who's going to stop it? Now it's YouTube. Next it's complete information and data control. Somebody in the censorship business or the government decides for you what you're going to see, and with that shapes you.

I have a classic example in my life. Have you ever been to China? I went there on vacation last summer. EVERYTHING there is under censorship by keyword as it passes through keyword filters and blacklists in the ISP's servers. They go so far as to make it so some threads on this BBS suddenly can't be found while others are fine. You can even see it by using Google China to look up something controversial versus Google USA.
What's the result of that? A mass group of people that believes what the reigning power wants to believe. The stepmother of the girl who took me to China is born and raised Chinese. She will fight you nearly to the death to tell you that Mao Zedong was the greatest man to have ever lived. She's the sweetest woman on the planet, but you bring up Mao or Communism or any of those sorts of topics and she will gnaw your arm off for saying a bad word, simply because she grew up censored to the rest of the world and doesn't know better.

From there, you could get into the whole debate of Communism vs Capitalism, blahdy blah. Just an example as to how censorship is beginning to breed in exactly what some world leaders want. Censorship could be a very useful thing in keeping out hurt and bruised feelings, but it can also shape people and I dunno about you, but I think that's at least kinda wrong.

[ROX]

Originally posted by Blooz
Tell Pakistan to get bent.

Blooz....ya beat me to it Sir <>



ROX

[Maverick]

I suppose clips insulting to islam are far more disagreeable than beheading people with a knife, blowing people up, stoning people and issuing threats of death just because they are deemed to have insulted the "prophet" or his faith.

On the other hand saying "get bent" seems to fit the situation.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by OOZ662
Alright, fine. From your viewpoint then. Say we decide censorship is the best thing since sliced bread. Now, who's going to stop it? Now it's YouTube. Next it's complete information and data control. Somebody in the censorship business or the government decides for you what you're going to see, and with that shapes you.

I have a classic example in my life. Have you ever been to China? I went there on vacation last summer. EVERYTHING there is under censorship by keyword as it passes through keyword filters and blacklists in the ISP's servers. They go so far as to make it so some threads on this BBS suddenly can't be found while others are fine. You can even see it by using Google China to look up something controversial versus Google USA.
What's the result of that? A mass group of people that believes what the reigning power wants to believe. The stepmother of the girl who took me to China is born and raised Chinese. She will fight you nearly to the death to tell you that Mao Zedong was the greatest man to have ever lived. She's the sweetest woman on the planet, but you bring up Mao or Communism or any of those sorts of topics and she will gnaw your arm off for saying a bad word, simply because she grew up censored to the rest of the world and doesn't know better.

From there, you could get into the whole debate of Communism vs Capitalism, blahdy blah. Just an example as to how censorship is beginning to breed in exactly what some world leaders want. Censorship could be a very useful thing in keeping out hurt and bruised feelings, but it can also shape people and I dunno about you, but I think that's at least kinda wrong.

First answer the questions I posted for you above around the legality of such content in some countries. Ignoring those questions won't make the facts go away.

Secondly what is wrong with patriotism. Yes I know what China's up too - probably more so than you as I'm involved in securing networks that operate within china. I know american's who will do the same thing and america is far from perfect. Most governments in the world already engage in censorship, including yours, so your points about that are moot.

Pakistan is an islamic country, it is their right to control what enters their borders, especially if they see their actions protecting their citizens. Same goes for the USA, in case you didn't realize a lot more people in the world think america does things wrong than think pakistan does things wrong. There are many things illegal in the USA or parts of the USA that many people think should be legal (eg prostitution, abortion, marijuana etc).

The world is bigger than the internet, not the other way around, and the internet and those that provide content are adapting to it.

At the end of the day like any internet based service profits will rule the day. If youtube deems the islamic user base significant enough I'm sure they'll add this 'feature'.

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Vulcan
No but neither is sodomy, polygamy, and abortion.

Again, none of this garbage that you keep interjecting into this discussion has anything at all to do with the subject of religion.  

Besides, they are not asking for the content to be "flagged", as you have claimed.   They are requesting that it be removed.

I am not comfortable viewing Radical Islamic material on YouTube.   It offends me greatly.   But I don't ask for it to be removed.

People have a free speech right to condemn and ridicule any religion, including Islam.   I routinely condemn the Catholic Church, although not anywhere near as much as I do Islam.

Meanwhile, the intrigue in this controversy continues.   It appears that many Pakistani people have been posting anti-government videos on You Tube recently, calling for President Musharraf to step down since his party was defeated in the election this month.    So the real reason for this sudden ban may actually be something quite different.

See this story:

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/25/pakistan-youtube-plot-thickens

The blocking efforts are also interfering with people in other countries now being able to access YouTube also:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16832/53/

The effort of one Pakistani ISP even brought YouTube down world-wide for an entire hour.    Because of the technological mess this has all created, the main Telcomm company in Pakistan cut off Pakistan from the rest of the world yesteday, while they try to figure this mess out.

See:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=548

I don't know if Pakistan is back online and again connected to the rest of the world yet today.

Does anyone here have friends in Pakistan that they can email?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by SIG220
Again, none of this garbage that you keep interjecting into this discussion has anything at all to do with the subject of religion.  

Besides, they are not asking for the content to be "flagged", as you have claimed.   They are requesting that it be removed.

I am not comfortable viewing Radical Islamic material on YouTube.   It offends me greatly.   But I don't ask for it to be removed.

People have a free speech right to condemn and ridicule any religion, including Islam.   I routinely condemn the Catholic Church, although not anywhere near as much as I do Islam.

Meanwhile, the intrigue in this controversy continues.   It appears that many Pakistani people have been posting anti-government videos on You Tube recently, calling for President Musharraf to step down since his party was defeated in the election this month.    So the real reason for this sudden ban may actually be something quite different.

See this story:

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/25/pakistan-youtube-plot-thickens

The blocking efforts are also interfering with people in other countries now being able to access YouTube also:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16832/53/

The effort of one Pakistani ISP even brought YouTube down world-wide for an entire hour.    Because of the technological mess this has all created, the main Telcomm company in Pakistan cut off Pakistan from the rest of the world yesteday, while they try to figure this mess out.

See:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=548

I don't know if Pakistan is back online and again connected to the rest of the world yet today.

Does anyone here have friends in Pakistan that they can email?

The wests founding laws are based on christian beliefs. Look at your laws around marriage and homosexual relations, they all stem from religious beliefs and any altneration to these laws brings howls of anger from religious groups in the US does it not?

Removed/flagged it's all the same. Youtube can identify where you're coming from, youtube and many other video sites already censor what you can view based on geographical data. Once again you show your ignorance of what is already occuring with youtube.

As far as I'm aware the Pakistani govt doesn't want people to watch videos on youtube that are not appropriate under islamic law (ie illegal and anybody watching them would be committing a crime). It did not want to block anti-govt videos.

As for the internet outage? Yeah right. Sure they took out the world, sure every ISP around the world openly accepts routing updates from anyone. Once again you show complete ignorance in this field and how net routing works. It didn't even get a mention in SANS so I'm guessing it's just media panic over a molehill as per usual.

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Vulcan

As far as I'm aware the Pakistani govt doesn't want people to watch videos on youtube that are not appropriate under islamic law (ie illegal and anybody watching them would be committing a crime). It did not want to block anti-govt videos.

So you trust and believe what the Pakistani government says?   That alone says a great deal about you.

Why all of a sudden do this now?   The timing of this is most suspicious to anyone who is not pro-Pakistan, like yourself.   For it comes right on the heels of their sitting government losing the election held this month.

You obviously supported all of the horrific abuses done to women under the Taliban rule of Afghanistan, which were also committed under the rule of strict Islamic law.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by SIG220
You obviously supported all of the horrific abuses done to women under the Taliban rule of Afghanistan, which were also committed under the rule of strict Islamic law.

Explain how you came to this conclusion?